|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 09/23/2008 : 10:20:33 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Bill scott
The vast majority of Christians hold the position that a openly gay Christian is as oxymoronic as a born-again atheist. |
Only if your definition of "Christian" is to have been "born again," which is a minority among all self-professed Christians in the United States, and an even smaller minority among Christians world-wide.
If you define Christians as simply that group of people who worship and follow Christ, then you need to include Catholics and Mormons and those pesky Episcopalians, who have themselves an openly gay Bishop. Then the gay-hating of the fundagelicals drops to being a tiny minority position, primarily limited to the U.S. South.
Just more of Bill's playing around with definitions to try to pull the wool over his own eyes.
Besides, even with Bill's made-up definition, an openly-gay Christian isn't self-contradictory since all Christians are sinners, and gayness is just another sin. Unless Bill means "unrepentant" when he says "openly" (which we can't discount, because he says he meant "rather pleased" when he said "jumped for glee"  ). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
 |
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 10:27:14 [Permalink]
|
| Originally posted by H. Humbert |
| So based on your logic if my wife finds out that I had been having sexual encounters with other women the whole time we have been married all I have to do is point out that I had never once told my wife that I was not out having affairs and then she could not accuse me of being dishonest. Sheeeze... |
What does being in a committed relationship have to do with opening up about your intimate sexual feelings with other family members? Were you compelled to tell your parents every time you had a sexual thought? Every time you masturbated? Those would be more analogous. Was not telling your father that you just rubbed one out in the bathroom to the Macy's uncatalogued a "lie," Bill? |
What does telling your dad about your masturbation habits have to do with hiding the fact that you are gay from your wife for 20-30 years?
| Cheating in a committed relationship--gay or straight--just isn't comparable. |
Sure it is. In the Ray Boltz case he hid his secret from his wife for 20-30 years and you claim that if he never came out and said the he was not a homosexual then no deception has taken place. What?!?!?!?!?
I could have used many examples for you to help demonstrate the deception that had taken place.
Ray Boltz could have come out and said that we has been sexually attracted to barn yard animals for the last 20-30 years and hiding that from your wife for the entire time would have been just as deceptive.
The fact is that Ray Boltz presented himself as something he was not to his wife and family for 20-30 years knowing all along that who he was portraying was not really him. This is high level deception.
| And stop using phrases like "based on your logic" when it's clear your couldn't follow a logical argument if your life depended on it. |
Present me one and we will see.
| You are stupid, stupid man who argues on the basis of ignorance and raw emotion. It's painful to watch you try to convince yourself that you are making sense. |
Oh settle down, Clyde. It's obvious that you are the one who allows his raw emotion to dictate his dude like rants.
| No, it's code for "Once again, bill, your denial of reality does not mean that it goes away." |
LOL..... This from the joker who thinks Boltz was not deceptive to his wife and family for hiding his homosexuality for 20-30 years because nobody can find a Ray Boltz quote during that time where he actually said, "I am not a homosexual." LOL..... |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 10:30:13 [Permalink]
|
| This list by denomination demonstrates that there is a wide range of view on Gays and their participation and acceptance as Christians. It also demonstrates that there is an ongoing debate among Christians themselves. Note that most of these denominations are not out on the fringe. Unless you consider Methodists and Christian denominations, some very old and established ones, fringe groups. |
I am saying that even within the denominations themselves there will be minority groups that believe what they want to believe. There are millions of Methodists so it would be silly to think some fringe groups did not exist within a group of this size. The original point remains. The vast majority of Christians do not except open homosexuality as an acceptable life style of one who claims to be born again. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
|
|
|
astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 10:47:38 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Bill scott
| This list by denomination demonstrates that there is a wide range of view on Gays and their participation and acceptance as Christians. It also demonstrates that there is an ongoing debate among Christians themselves. Note that most of these denominations are not out on the fringe. Unless you consider Methodists and Christian denominations, some very old and established ones, fringe groups. |
I am saying that even within the denominations themselves there will be minority groups that believe what they want to believe. There are millions of Methodists so it would be silly to think some fringe groups did not exist within a group of this size. The original point remains. The vast majority of Christians do not except open homosexuality as an acceptable life style of one who claims to be born again.
|
And the point remains that roughly 7% of those "Christians" are homosexual themselves. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
|
|
|
Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 10:57:13 [Permalink]
|
| The vast majority of Christians do not except open homosexuality as an acceptable life style of one who claims to be born again. |
But once again you are meddling the definitions.
Because the 'vast majority of Christians' do not give a shit about claiming to be 'born again'; this is recent innovation from a small sub-group of Christians.
| I am saying that even within the denominations themselves there will be minority groups that believe what they want to believe. |
Ok; I call BS on this one. When the list states that the position on a denomination varies on the subject, that means that there is an actual debate going on, not that everybody agree except for that guy that one guy over there, the one with the tin-foil hat and the T-shirt saying: 'Jesus was a Vulcan'.
Obviously, any significant group will have some fringe lunatics; but their opinion is irrelevant when determining the given position of the group as a whole.
Also, what is the deal with 'open homosexuality' and why is 'closed homosexuality' acceptable?
Do you mean that it is acceptable providing you lie about it and present a clean; straight face to the world?
That would be tremendous hypocrisy. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 11:04:48 [Permalink]
|
| Originally posted by Dave W. |
Originally posted by Bill scott
The vast majority of Christians hold the position that a openly gay Christian is as oxymoronic as a born-again atheist. |
Only if your definition of "Christian" is to have been "born again," which is a minority among all self-professed Christians in the United States, and an even smaller minority among Christians world-wide. |
It's irrelevant what I or any other professing Christian says. It is completely relevant what Christ says and he says: "You must be born again."
| If you define Christians as simply that group of people who worship and follow Christ, then you need to include Catholics and Mormons |
All depends on the meaning you pour into the name Christ. It's rather obvious that the Christian Jesus and Mormon Jesus are not one in the same.
| and those pesky Episcopalians, who have themselves an openly gay Bishop. |
For like the first time in their entire history and the church either split or was on the verge of spiting over the issue. So once again, if you take the entire history of the Episcopalians the vast majority did not believe that open homosexuals could be born again at the same time.
| Then the gay-hating of the fundagelicals drops to being a tiny minority position, primarily limited to the U.S. South. |
Please define gay-hating and what do you base this opinion from?
| Besides, even with Bill's made-up definition, an openly-gay Christian isn't self-contradictory since all Christians are sinners, and gayness is just another sin. Unless Bill means "unrepentant" when he says "openly" (which we can't discount, because he says he meant "rather pleased" when he said "jumped for glee" ). |
Of course that is what I mean. There is a big difference between one who claims to be Christian and wrestles with the temptation of homosexual desires and is remorseful when/if they fall vs. one who claims to be Christian while professoning to be homosexual and rejecting the notion that it is a sin of the flesh. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 11:28:44 [Permalink]
|
| Originally posted by Simon |
| The vast majority of Christians do not except open homosexuality as an acceptable life style of one who claims to be born again. |
But once again you are meddling the definitions.
Because the 'vast majority of Christians' do not give a shit about claiming to be 'born again'; this is recent innovation from a small sub-group of Christians. |
I suggest that they should considering the fact that Christ himself proclaimed the words, "Ye must be born again."
| I am saying that even within the denominations themselves there will be minority groups that believe what they want to believe. |
Ok; I call BS on this one. When the list states that the position on a denomination varies on the subject, that means that there is an actual debate going on, not that everybody agree except for that guy that one guy over there, the one with the tin-foil hat and the T-shirt saying: 'Jesus was a Vulcan'. |
I never stated that denomination X or Y have never had a debate on the issue. I stated that the vast majority of professing Christians do not hold the position that one can be openly gay and born again at the same time.
Also, what is the deal with 'open homosexuality' and why is 'closed homosexuality' acceptable?
Do you mean that it is acceptable providing you lie about it and present a clean; straight face to the world?
That would be tremendous hypocrisy. |
Open homosexuality would be one who has submitted to his homosexual passions while a "closed" homosexual would be someone who wrestles with his homosexual desires and though he may fall he repents and confesses his moral failure rather then flaunts it or promotes it or excuses it. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
|
|
|
Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 11:44:16 [Permalink]
|
It's irrelevant what I or any other professing Christian says. It is completely relevant what Christ says and he says: "You must be born again."
|
Oh; please!
He used this expression but it does not necessarily signify that what he meant by it was anything like the meaning that the evangelists that pilfered this particular string of words made it out to be!
He also said that 'nobody can enter the kingdom of God except through me'.
Tomorrow, while we are on the subject, I could found a sect that profess a particular meaning to the words 'through me' and teach sodomy as the only way to salvation.
It will not mean that my understanding of these particular words should supplant the traditional one and that only this particular version of Christianity should be considered Christian.
| If you define Christians as simply that group of people who worship and follow Christ, then you need to include Catholics and Mormons |
All depends on the meaning you pour into the name Christ. It's rather obvious that the Christian Jesus and Mormon Jesus are not one in the same.
|
Ok; first of all, you need to precise the evangelist Christian Jesus.
Otherwise, your argument is quite circular.
And frankly, yeah, they do believe in the same dude. The one whose teaching were taught in the Bible.
Sure, there is disagreement about the details; but really the core ideas are the same.
They believe that he was God incarnated into flesh; that he performed miracles; was crucified; resurrected and that his history was accurately described into the bible.
and those pesky Episcopalians, who have themselves an openly gay Bishop.
|
For like the first time in their entire history and the church either split or was on the verge of spiting over the issue. So once again, if you take the entire history of the Episcopalians the vast majority did not believe that open homosexuals could be born again at the same time.
|
And if you take the whole history of mankind, the vast majority of people did not know how to make a fire.
However, when making a statement in the present tense, it is assumed that you are referring to the present situation.
*Edit: Me grammared like noob! * |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
| Edited by - Simon on 09/23/2008 11:52:29 |
|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 11:50:48 [Permalink]
|
| Originally posted by astropin |
| And the point remains that roughly 7% of those "Christians" are homosexual themselves. |
Interesting. So you claim that 7% of the Methodist population are homosexual while the general US population comes in at under 2.8%.
Can you point me in the direction of the source for your 7% figure please. Thanks.
http://www.citizenlink.org/CLBriefs/A000007323.cfm |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 12:26:50 [Permalink]
|
| Originally posted by Simon |
| It's irrelevant what I or any other professing Christian says. It is completely relevant what Christ says and he says: "You must be born again." |
Oh; please!
The fact that he used this expression does not mean that he meant by it anything like what the evangelist that pilfered this particular string of words made it out to be! |
Ever read John 3? It's not to hard to interpret Christ's words in verse 3 when he says: "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
| If you define Christians as simply that group of people who worship and follow Christ, then you need to include Catholics and Mormons |
All depends on the meaning you pour into the name Christ. It's rather obvious that the Christian Jesus and Mormon Jesus are not one in the same. |
Ok; first of all, you need to precise the evangelist Christian Jesus.
Otherwise, your argument is quite circular.
And frankly, yeah, they do believe in the same dude. The one whose teaching were taught in the Bible. Sure, there is disagreement about the details; but really the core ideas are the same. |
Boy, I am afraid we will have to open a whole new thread if you are under the impression that the Mormon Jesus and the Christian Jesus are one in the same.
| They believe that he was God incarnated into flesh; that he performed miracles; was crucified; resurrected and that his history was accurately described into the bible. |
Your misrepresenting Mormons here.
| and those pesky Episcopalians, who have themselves an openly gay Bishop. |
For like the first time in their entire history and the church either split or was on the verge of spiting over the issue. So once again, if you take the entire history of the Episcopalians the vast majority did not believe that open homosexuals could be born again at the same time. |
And if you take the whole history of mankind, the vast majority of people did not know how to make a fire.
However, when making a statement in the present tense, it is assumed that you are referring to the present situation. |
Either way in the past tense they did not know how to start a fire therefore they did not start a fire.
The Episcopalians could have accepted homosexuals in the past tense if they would have so chosen.
And the original point still stands. The majority of Christians to this day reject open homosexuals as born again. I am surprised that you are struggling with this considering that the majority of the general population rejects homosexual marriage. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 12:43:24 [Permalink]
|
What Bill is saying, unless I misunderstand, and I'm not, is it's okay for a gay person to be miserable, and a Christian. It really does come down to whether he or she acts on a sexual preference that they were born with. That brings us back full circle. I will say it once again:
Fundamentalist Christianity is a cruel religion. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 12:57:26 [Permalink]
|
| What Bill is saying, unless I misunderstand, and I'm not, is it's okay for a gay person to be miserable, and a Christian. |
No. I am saying that acting on the homosexual passions is what brings the misery and guilt.
| It really does come down to whether he or she acts on a sexual preference that they were born with. |
No. We all are born with tendencies to sin and homosexuality is just one of those tendencies.
| That brings us back full circle. |
How so?
I will say it once again:
Fundamentalist Christianity is a cruel religion. |
You have said it over and over again. Don't you have anything new to add? |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 09/23/2008 : 12:57:28 [Permalink]
|
Homosexual marrige has as long a history as the hetro sort. What does "born again" have to do with it, or anything, beyond furthering cultish superstition? | And the original point still stands. The majority of Christians to this day reject open homosexuals as born again. I am surprised that you are struggling with this considering that the majority of the general population rejects homosexual marriage. |
I see. You are still laboring under the delusion that this is a Christian nation, implying that all others are of no consequence. Just because the majority is Christian, many if not most, I suspect, paying mere lip-service because being one is expected of them. Apatheists, as it were.
Re: the claim that majority of the American populace, the whole bunch, not just Christians, rejects gay marrige -- reference, please.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
|
|
|
Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 13:01:10 [Permalink]
|
| Ever read John 3? It's not to hard to interpret Christ's words in verse 3 when he says: "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. |
So?
He wants us to wrap ourselves into placental tissue and climb up some woman's vagina (I refuse to do that to my mother)?
Unless he was being literal, and nobody would think he was, there is plenty of interpretations possible about what the fuck it means to be 'born again'.
Some would say that Baptism is all what it takes. Other would say, 'accept Jesus into you heart' or 'accept him as your personal saviour', which is not very useful and would apply to any Christians depending on to how you interpret these particular words.
In fact, one could even apply these words to non Christians. If by 'accepting Jesus' you mean 'accepting the values that Jesus promoted' rather than accepting this particular teacher.
It's not like there is an (officially God sanctioned) check-list anywhere!
You seem to take some rather obtuse passage, interpret them and then decide that this interpretation are obvious and the only one reasonable.
Despite the facts that many people, some of which much more intelligent and knowledgeable than either of us, have already look into this and fail to reach a consensus on the matter. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 13:30:45 [Permalink]
|
Bill Scott:
You have said it over and over again. Don't you have anything new to add? |
I suppose I could tell you that I fear fundamentalism, no matter the stripe because once you think you own the "Truth" small matters like cruelty can be easily waved away because the big "T" blinds you to reason. While religion and at least some rational thought are not necessarily mutually exclusive, fundamentalist religion and reason is because the answers are already in place and accepted before the questions are even asked. I might as well try to reason with a wall.
I may rejoin the argument for my entertainment, or for lurkers. It sure won't be because I think that there is a chance that you will change, Bill. You already own the "Truth".
|
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Xian singer Ray Bolz admits he's gay.
