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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 10/14/2008 : 09:36:12 [Permalink]
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His interview with Arkansas Senator Mark Pryor was an exceptional standout moment. But moments like that one were few.
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That was the part I thought had too much editing to try to make the guy look stupid. I thought, for the most part, he didn't do that in the rest of the movie and the self-righteousness about Iran was a little too much.
Other than that, I don't think he made anyone look foolish at all.
It may be elementary stuff to you, but there are a lot of people who don't know that.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/14/2008 09:41:56 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2008 : 11:19:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
[quote]
It may be elementary stuff to you, but there are a lot of people who don't know that.
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My point is, it's not a good movie. Take it or leave it. My opinion... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2008 : 11:31:01 [Permalink]
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Looking at the reviews at Metacritic.com
William Arnold at the Seattle Post-Intelligencer:
| Stylistically, Religulous is very much like a Michael Moore documentary, in that most of the scenes have a comic structure, end with a punch line and are designed to make Maher-the-interviewer look sane and rational while his subject comes off as a complete fool. |
Robert Koehler at Variety:
To the film's credit, Maher never engages in Michael Moore-style gotcha tactics, but rather asks questions that raise more questions, in the form of a Socratic dialogue. To believers expecting a blind hatchet job, this will prove both thought-provoking and a bit disarming; skeptics may be surprised (as Maher is) by the occasionally smart replies to his queries.
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San Francisco Chronicle Mick LaSalle:
| Maher makes Michael Moore look incredibly likable in comparison. |
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/14/2008 11:36:39 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2008 : 12:29:49 [Permalink]
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Expressing an opinion on a discussion forum? Highly inappropriate. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/14/2008 12:30:11 |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2008 : 13:57:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Looking at the reviews at Metacritic.com
William Arnold at the Seattle Post-Intelligencer:
| Stylistically, Religulous is very much like a Michael Moore documentary, in that most of the scenes have a comic structure, end with a punch line and are designed to make Maher-the-interviewer look sane and rational while his subject comes off as a complete fool. |
Robert Koehler at Variety:
To the film's credit, Maher never engages in Michael Moore-style gotcha tactics, but rather asks questions that raise more questions, in the form of a Socratic dialogue. To believers expecting a blind hatchet job, this will prove both thought-provoking and a bit disarming; skeptics may be surprised (as Maher is) by the occasionally smart replies to his queries.
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San Francisco Chronicle Mick LaSalle:
| Maher makes Michael Moore look incredibly likable in comparison. |
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Classic!
Such is the case with most films. Some of the reviews for "The Matrix" cracked me up. You had well known critics talking about time travel???  |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
| Edited by - astropin on 10/14/2008 15:32:06 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2008 : 15:03:07 [Permalink]
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As with anything that is subject to subjective reviews... there will be a wide variety of opinions.
I mean, I've stood within 1 foot of the Mona Lisa (before it was vandalized and locked behind 6inches of ballistic glass), and I was not all that impressed. The hiistory of the painting is far more interesting and compelling than the work itself, imo. Others would say it is the most spectacular piece of art from its period.
I enjoyed Religulous, it was funny, but I also happen to agree with Maher on most of his points about religion.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2008 : 04:12:20 [Permalink]
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I find this theme reoccuring among those that don't like Religulous:
| That's why Maher takes on simpletons and extremists instead of seeking out theologians and other thoughtful believers to explain and defend their beliefs. |
Why do they think that these people are simpletons and extremists? These are our families and friends and co-workers. This is America. This is how people think. I don't get the idea that Maher thinks these people are simpletons, yet the reviewers find Maher insulting when it's their views that are insulting. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2008 : 16:03:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
I find this theme reoccuring among those that don't like Religulous:| That's why Maher takes on simpletons and extremists instead of seeking out theologians and other thoughtful believers to explain and defend their beliefs. |
Why do they think that these people are simpletons and extremists? |
Those are the same charges leveled against Dawkins and Harris and the like. It is a charge of desperation: these people only addressed the simple, unsophisticated religious views because they are themselves too simple and unsophisticated to engage the complex, highly nuanced theology of real people of faith.
The question that Dawkins (et al) have been asking in return is, "what sophisticated, nuanced theology?" And they have been receiving no answers.
In other words, the mouthy atheists have been accused of attacking a caricature of "real" religion, but it turns out that religion strawmans itself. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2008 : 16:09:05 [Permalink]
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| When Maher did find "theologians and other thoughtful believers" they mostly agreed with Maher. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2008 : 18:40:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
When Maher did find "theologians and other thoughtful believers" they mostly agreed with Maher.
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Yeah, but Maher didn't ask those believers why they believe there is a god. Since they seemed to be rational, why not ask them?
My opinion as to why he left them alone on that question is the answers wouldn't have been as funny as the crazies that he talked to. But a big daddy in the sky is every bit as irrational as the talking snake story. Maher went for the cheap shots, which is one reason why I didn't like the movie.
Again, it's easy to make fools look foolish. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2008 : 02:18:42 [Permalink]
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But Maher's critics are the only ones calling them fools. Maher isn't. I think he has a pretty good response here.
http://www.salon.com/ent/movies/btm/feature/2008/10/02/maher/index.html
It seems like your major target in this movie are the religious extremists, those who belong to the fundamentalist camps of various different religions.
That's not really true, that's not really true. I mean, take Sen. Pryor -- I don't think he'd consider himself a fundamentalist. I think he's like a majority of Americans. I mean, 60 percent of Americans believe the Noah's ark story to be literally true. To me, that's mainstream. When people say, "You're going after extremists," I say, well, to be religious at all is to be an extremist. It's to be extremely irrational. Not that everybody believes in Noah's ark, or the guy who lived to be 900 years old. But even to believe the central story of Christianity -- a lot of people would say, "I'm not like those kooks out in Kansas who believe the Earth is 5,000 years old. But I do believe God has a son, who he sent down to earth on a suicide mission, and he said, 'Hey, Jesus, I'm sending you on this suicide mission, but don't worry, they can't kill you because you're really me.' I, God the father -- wink, wink -- let's split up the work! OK? Because there's two of us, but not really! I'll go down to Earth first and I'll see if I can't impregnate a Palestinian woman so she can give birth to you." It's just as silly a story. We're just used to it.
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[edited to say them fools] |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/17/2008 10:45:18 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2008 : 09:42:48 [Permalink]
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Gorgo quoting Maher:
That's not really true, that's not really true. I mean, take Sen. Pryor -- I don't think he'd consider himself a fundamentalist. I think he's like a majority of Americans. I mean, 60 percent of Americans believe the Noah's ark story to be literally true. |
Pryor is a fundamentalist. I don't really care what Maher thinks Pryor thinks he is. If your take on the bible is that it's literally and historically factual, you are a fundamentalist. What is left unanswered in the film is why those seemingly reasonable believers believe. I'm talking about the many Christians who do not take all of the bible literally, and who have no problem with science that contradicts a literal interpretation of the bible.
Even if 60% of the population are flat out fools it still begs the question of why Maher didn't ask about the existence of god to those Christians who are obviously not literalists. (It's possible that he did but those scenes were cut because they didn't fit with the tone of the movie.)
And don't get me wrong Gorgo, I think we do have a serious problem in this country with regard to fundamentalist Christianity. They have been a consistent thorn in the side of scientific education and I do consider that demographic dangerous to our very freedoms. I consider all fundamentalists dangerous. I am not one of the religious people throwing stones at Maher because he is attacking my views. Whatever his intention was, unless it was to make fundamentalists look foolish, which is not hard to do, I don't think it worked.
My criticism of the film is not because I don't agree with many of Maher's views on religion. My criticism of the movie is that it wasn't particularly thought provoking and worse, not a good movie. And I have already stated why I think so. Why that bothers you so much, I don't know. It seems to me that enough of the atheist/agnostic community is supportive of the movie and my view is pretty much irrelevant. (I hated Titanic too, and it won the oscar for best picture of the year. I still think it was a dog.)
Frankly, I think their were scenes in the movie "Borat" that did a much better, and funnier job of of exposing Christian craziness than Maher's movie did. The made up character of Borat allowed the Christians fundamentalists and other bigots speak for themselves, without editorial comment and sophomoric arguments, while he went along as a willing, naively bigoted fool himself.
I think a good movie could be made that brings into focus the irrationality of religion. Even a documentary meant to be funny but ultimately serious. I just don't think "Religulous" did the job.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2008 : 10:01:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
but it turns out that religion strawmans itself.
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lol.....love it. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2008 : 10:41:42 [Permalink]
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| I'm talking about the many Christians who do not take all of the bible literally, and who have no problem with science that contradicts a literal interpretation of the bible. |
Anyone that believes in a supernatural solution to a problem has a problem with science. If they don't believe in a supernatural solution to a problem, then they are not theists, they are atheists who call themselves theists.
I think a good movie could be made that brings into focus the irrationality of religion. Even a documentary meant to be funny but ultimately serious. I just don't think "Religulous" did the job.
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That's fine, you don't have to like it. I just think it's interesting to hear all the different views. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2008 : 10:53:13 [Permalink]
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Kil says:
I don't really care what Maher thinks Pryor thinks he is. If your take on the bible is that it's literally and historically factual, you are a fundamentalist.
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Actually, I think the question he was responding to, and the way that he answers the question causes me to think he meant 'extremist' rather than fundamentalist. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Religulous - Recommendation
