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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 12/21/2008 : 22:59:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hittman
I always thought "love it or leave it" was an ignorant redneck thing. Guess not. |
Wow, Hittman you really enjoy putting words in other people's mouths, don't you? Sure, it's an easy way to "win" an argument: just make your opponent out to be an idiot by having him "say" things that are idiotic. But is it satisfying?
I was under the impression that the Libertarian ideal is that communities get to make their own laws, and if you don't like one community's laws, you can either work to change them, you can leave for a community more to your liking or you can sit around whining. There are, of course, different levels of community, including local, county, state and national.
Don't like the United States of America's community laws? Work to change them, leave, or do nothing but bitch. Nobody said you have to love this country, it was simply (and correctly) pointed out that you're not being forced to stay.| I'll still pay it, because I have no choice, and there is no place to go that's tax free (which makes that suggestion exceedingly stupid)... |
Somalia's government is cohesive enough to impose taxes?
Seriously, you already said that even minimal taxes are a justifiable theft, and different countries have different tax rates, so find someplace with less theft to live.
Actually, even though the country is in sheer anarchy right now, Somalia is as close to the Libertarian ideal as any other place I've heard of. All they need is a minimal government which does nothing but combat fraud, build roads, stop crime and put out fires, right? Since politicians in the US are highly unlikely to give up the power they've stolen, it'd probably be easier to add a government to Somalia than to eliminate lots of government from the US. A governmental paradise awaits! Don't let the opportunity slip out of your hands. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 12/22/2008 : 01:52:32 [Permalink]
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I'm sorry, Hittman, but I can't figure out a way to reach you. We're on opposite sides of the political spectrum, and your unbending view of taxes equals theft makes it impossible for me to explain my point of view to you. I'm at a loss at how to proceed.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2008 : 10:07:41 [Permalink]
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Hittman:
I thought this board was for logical and reasonable people. Perhaps I was mistaken. |
So, your saying that your opinion, which has been challenged, rises to a level that is based on such solid evidence that only an irrational person could question it? Must be nice to bask in such certainty while actual economists argue the points that are being discussed here. I'm shocked that they haven't given you a call.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Hittman
Skeptic Friend
134 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2008 : 11:31:57 [Permalink]
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| Don't like the United States of America's community laws? Work to change them, leave, or do nothing but bitch. Nobody said you have to love this country, it was simply (and correctly) pointed out that you're not being forced to stay. |
Ever try to change a law? I have. The people with the power to change it will pat you on the head like a good little boy and shoo you away. Changing existing law is virtually impossible for the average citizen. (Getting new laws passed is somewhat easier.) I could become a congress weasel and try it that way, but I have ethics, which leaves me completely unqualified.
Why should I leave? I'm sitting here minding my own business, not bothering anyone, not hurting anyone, and government thugs are taking 40-50% of what I earn. (It's impossible to get an exact percentage, because there are so many hidden taxes and fees, and taxes on taxes, and taxes hidden in the price of goods and services. But 40-50% is about average for the middle class.) If we could get that down to 10% or so it would be a minor PITA, and people would have enough money left over to do most of what the government pretends to do, and do it much better.
| Somalia is as close to the Libertarian ideal as any other place I've heard of. |
Remind me not to refer to your expertise on the definition of libertarianism.
| We're on opposite sides of the political spectrum, and your unbending view of taxes equals theft makes it impossible for me to explain my point of view to you. |
Dr. M, if you could explain to me how taking money from people by force isn't theft, we'll be able to understand each other. It's very simple. Taxes are money taken with the threat of force. How is taking money with the threat of force not theft? I've already conceded that it needs to be done, but that still doesn't change it from theft to something else, which is why it should be done as little as possible.
| So, your saying that your opinion, which has been challenged, rises to a level that is based on such solid evidence that only an irrational person could question it? |
It is beyond me how a rational person can refuse to admit that taking money by force isn't theft. I'm still waiting for a rational explanation of that position. Not justification, not obfuscation, but a simple rational explanation.
Anyone who claims it isn't but is unable to back up that claim is being irrational.
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When a vampire Jehovah's Witness knocks on your door, don't invite him in. Blood Witness: http://bloodwitness.com
Get Smartenized® with the Quick Hitts blog: http://www.davehitt.com/blog2/index.phpBlog |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2008 : 11:37:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hittman
I'm sitting here minding my own business, not bothering anyone, not hurting anyone, and government thugs are taking 40-50% of what I earn. |
No, you are sitting there under the protection of the U.S. military, as well as your local fire, health, and police departments. You only have the opportunities to accumulate wealth that you do because you were lucky enough to be born into the protected bubble that is the United States of America. It's pay-to-play, pal. Just for existing you owe the government money. You are stealing services by living here. The tax man is just here to collect the payment you already owe. This idea that you don't take up any resources or owe anything for living here is a complete Libertarian fantasy.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 12/22/2008 11:45:33 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2008 : 15:54:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hittman
Why should I leave? |
Because you think that government thugs are unjustifiably stealing from you.
Why the hell would you STAY?!? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2008 : 03:01:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hittman
| We're on opposite sides of the political spectrum, and your unbending view of taxes equals theft makes it impossible for me to explain my point of view to you. |
Dr. M, if you could explain to me how taking money from people by force isn't theft, we'll be able to understand each other. It's very simple. Taxes are money taken with the threat of force. How is taking money with the threat of force not theft? I've already conceded that it needs to be done, but that still doesn't change it from theft to something else, which is why it should be done as little as possible.
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Framing taxes as you do serves no purpose but to restrict the discussion about it.
You are describing Taxes as theft, which is a premise I cannot accept.
I view taxes as an instrument to pool resources for the benefit of the collective.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2008 : 03:17:50 [Permalink]
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Is it any different if it's fifteen neighbors instead of one?
How about if it's 100 neighbors, and they hire someone to do the job of making the threatening visit?
How about if they give that someone a pretty blue uniform and a shiny badge?
It's all the same thing, isn't it? If it's not, please explain the difference to me.
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You don't have anything without the system. If you object to the system that gives you property in the first place, then give up your idea of property. They system giveth, and the system taketh away. What is wrong with the system is not that it takes away from you, is that it takes away from the poor and gives to the already wealthy. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Hittman
Skeptic Friend
134 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2008 : 09:20:20 [Permalink]
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Because you think that government thugs are unjustifiably stealing from you.
Why the hell would you STAY?!? |
There is no other place for me to go where government thugs don't steal money from me.
| Just for existing you owe the government money. You are stealing services by living here. The tax man is just here to collect the payment you already owe. |
If I asked for those services, you'd have a point. But how can I owe money for something I haven't explicitly asked for, and agreed to pay for?
As I've repeatedly said, I will be happy to pay for the services I use. Roads, fire and police protection, and the like. But I'm also forced to pay for a plethora of things I don't use and don't approve of, like handouts to corporations with outdated business models.
If someone took it on themselves to mow your lawn, then knocked on your door and demanded payment, would you owe them the money?
If you agreed to pay ahead of time, of course you do. You have a contract. But if there has been no agreement, how can you possibly owe them the money?
| This idea that you don't take up any resources or owe anything for living here is a complete Libertarian fantasy. |
Typical straw man argument. Perhaps you should learn some more about libertarianism before making such sweeping, totally wrong, statements about it.
Framing taxes as you do serves no purpose but to restrict the discussion about it.
You are describing Taxes as theft, which is a premise I cannot accept.
I view taxes as an instrument to pool resources for the benefit of the collective. |
I agree with your last statement, but that doesn't change the fact that taking resources under the threat of force is theft.
Dr, I like and respect you, but on this subject, since we can't agree on the most basic premise, we'll never come to a meeting of the minds.
| If you object to the system that gives you property in the first place, then give up your idea of property. They system giveth, and the system taketh away. |
The system doesn't give me property. I earn my property through my hard work and talent. And since New Loundon v. Kelo, it doesn't protect it either.
| What is wrong with the system is not that it takes away from you, is that it takes away from the poor and gives to the already wealthy. |
So then you're opposed to the bailouts?
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When a vampire Jehovah's Witness knocks on your door, don't invite him in. Blood Witness: http://bloodwitness.com
Get Smartenized® with the Quick Hitts blog: http://www.davehitt.com/blog2/index.phpBlog |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2008 : 09:54:08 [Permalink]
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The system doesn't give me property. I earn my property through my hard work and talent. And since New Loundon v. Kelo, it doesn't protect it either.
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Have to look up the court case, but you do nothing alone. You do it with a system that decides what property is and who gets it, and it does it imperfectly. Taxes can work to rectify those errors.
So then you're opposed to the bailouts?
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If we're going to have an imperfect so-called "free market," then government ought to be in the business of rectifying errors. If we had a government which made sure that people had health care, housing, education, transportation and communication, then what need would there be to bail anyone out? I think bailouts tend to be another way to channel more money to the already wealthy.
Are bailouts better than doing nothing? Maybe. I don't have enough information. Probably not in the case of the banks. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2008 : 16:35:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hittman
There is no other place for me to go where government thugs don't steal money from me. |
So, because all governments would steal from you, you choose to stay in a place where they steal a lot, instead of a little? Why not move to Hong Kong, where the government takes less than half of what the US Government does?
You also wrote:| Dr, I like and respect you, but on this subject, since we can't agree on the most basic premise, we'll never come to a meeting of the minds. |
The premise that you seem to be denying is that your representatives are asking the government to provide services on your behalf. So yes, you're making the request as explicitly as you can under a representative republic. If you don't like what your representatives are doing, get new ones (either by getting rid of the old ones, or moving to where they don't ask for as many services).
Also:| The system doesn't give me property. I earn my property through my hard work and talent. |
Actually, the vast majority of the real property in the US was stolen, and then handed out by the government to private entities. Is it the case that government theft is okay when you benefit from it? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2008 : 00:31:16 [Permalink]
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Whew! That was quite an entertaining read—until the last couple of pages. Then, we seem to have broken down into a debate over ideology. But, you know, I really don't have anything against Libertarian beliefs. That is, with the exception of Libertarians' general economic principles. Unfortunately, I could write a book on that subject, but I might have to do some real research. So, I'll just stick with a couple of observations I found upsetting.
First…Come on guys! Leave the word ‘Socialism' alone. It's just a word. I'm so tired of all the ways different people like to use it, or insist on how it should be used. Let's demonize another word for awhile, like feudalism or something.
Also, there's plenty of blame to go around for this economic catastrophe. Sure some folks are more blameworthy than others, but that's the brakes. And yes, I'm intentionally being vague and simplistic. It took me too damned long to read this post to go into detail. However, I just read a new release of Paul Krugman's “The Return of Depression Economics.” Without venturing too far to the left, he did an adequate job of making a dumb ass like me understand how we got here. And, he did it without pointing too many fingers.
I, also, heard a lot of nonsense about American workers. I've worked in union shops and non-union shops. I've been around during a successful union drive and an equally successful union bust. I've worked in the field and in the office. I've run jobs and been the lowliest laborer down in the muck. You know, in all that time and all those jobs I've seen lazy S.O.B's and gung ho wackos. And, right now, I can't say that union workers are any better or worse than non-union workers. (That includes the Mexicans that someone mentioned earlier)
Now, back to the subject of this thread...Even though we hate giving Ford, Chrysler and GM such a huge loan, we don't seem to have any problem giving the ‘transplants' tax payer dollars. (See the two articles and the blog listed below for a fairly comprehensive list. I forgot how to hyperlink a word. It's been a long time...sorry) Anyway, I just found that interesting.
Does anyone believe that the loss of a large part of our manufacturing sector, like the auto makers, would affect our national security? I didn't read anything about that one in this thread.
Finally, I've got to use one quote:
Originally posted by Hitman:
The basic reason for governments is to provide protection against force and fraud. |
Well, maybe that's an opinion proffered for all governments in general, but I kinda like this one better:
Originally posted bythe founding fathers of the United States of America
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. |
That seems to go just a little beyond “force and fraud.” I especially like the parts about domestic tranquility, general welfare and posterity.
Oh, and here are the links I mentioned above:
http://washingtonindependent.com/22236/cars
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2008/12/14/2008-12-14_republicans_subsidize_foreign_auto_maker.html
http://thecarnut.typepad.com/steve_parker_the_car_nut_/2008/12/this-post-contains-information-on-the-transplant-carmaking-industry-in-the-us-press-releases-from-several-unions-supporti.html
Edited to add the links that I forgot about... |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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| Edited by - Tim on 12/27/2008 00:37:14 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2008 : 03:10:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Tim
(See the two articles and the blog listed below for a fairly comprehensive list. I forgot how to hyperlink a word. It's been a long time...sorry) |
A simple HOW-TO hyperlink a work can be found here.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Hittman
Skeptic Friend
134 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2009 : 10:42:49 [Permalink]
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| If we had a government which made sure that people had health care, housing, education, transportation and communication, then what need would there be to bail anyone out? |
That was tried. The experiment was called The USSR. You might want to read about. It didn't work out very well.
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When a vampire Jehovah's Witness knocks on your door, don't invite him in. Blood Witness: http://bloodwitness.com
Get Smartenized® with the Quick Hitts blog: http://www.davehitt.com/blog2/index.phpBlog |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2009 : 10:44:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hittman
| If we had a government which made sure that people had health care, housing, education, transportation and communication, then what need would there be to bail anyone out? |
That was tried. The experiment was called The USSR. You might want to read about. It didn't work out very well.
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Actually, you might want to read about how capitalism failed there as well. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Killing the car companies
