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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2009 :  12:32:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Hittman

If we had a government which made sure that people had health care, housing, education, transportation and communication, then what need would there be to bail anyone out?


That was tried. The experiment was called The USSR. You might want to read about. It didn't work out very well.


No. Just no.

It was tried, yes, but it was called Western Europe. And it worked just fine. It still work pretty well, all thing considered.


The USSR had little concern with its citizen health care or education or, put simply, for it citizens in general.
Health care was pretty abismal, housing was quite terrible, albeit free, and I am not sure about transportation and communication. The Moscow's subway is one of the finest in the world, from what I heard, but I suspect that it was more done as a 'prestige project' than out of a real desire for the common man.

Frankly, I don't find your habit throwing terms like 'socialism' or comparisons with the USSR quite convincing. It's like, a Goodwin for libertarian!
I find it to seem uninformed or even wilfully ignorant of the fact that other approach than pure libertarian capitalism have been tried elsewhere with acceptable success.

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2009 :  12:41:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Hittman
That was tried. The experiment was called The USSR. You might want to read about. It didn't work out very well.

Western Europe ring a bell.

Because countries like Sweden, the Netherlands, Denmark and Germany are doing so extremely bad.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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Hittman
Skeptic Friend

134 Posts

Posted - 01/10/2009 :  08:31:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Hittman's Homepage Send Hittman a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, you might want to read about how capitalism failed there as well.


Yes, it did. You can't take an entire nation of people used to Big Brother providing everything, poorly, but providing it, into capitalists overnight with no transition or training.

Back to the subject at hand – I love this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAqPMJFaEdY


When a vampire Jehovah's Witness knocks on your door, don't invite him in. Blood Witness: http://bloodwitness.com

Get Smartenized® with the Quick Hitts blog: http://www.davehitt.com/blog2/index.phpBlog
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 01/10/2009 :  09:44:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Hittman

Actually, you might want to read about how capitalism failed there as well.


Yes, it did. You can't take an entire nation of people used to Big Brother providing everything, poorly, but providing it, into capitalists overnight with no transition or training.



The Russians were far better under the gangsters that ran the U.S.S.R. than the gangsters that ran Russia for the wealthy in the West under the Czar or Putin.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2009 :  14:48:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote

The Russians were far better under the gangsters that ran the U.S.S.R. than the gangsters that ran Russia for the wealthy in the West under the Czar or Putin.


I think that it's quite a stretch.
The Russian economy has improved quite a bit, albeit through no good of Putin, mostly thanks to the high gaz prices. And sure, the situation for the poorest citizen is way worst than it was as many of the security blankets have been withdraw ruthlessly, but the situation for the average Russian is not worst than it was.

furthermore, bas as Putin is for democracy, I do believe than he has yet to roll the situation back to were it was during the good ol' times of the KGB...

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2009 :  16:22:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Simon


The Russians were far better under the gangsters that ran the U.S.S.R. than the gangsters that ran Russia for the wealthy in the West under the Czar or Putin.


I think that it's quite a stretch.
The Russian economy has improved quite a bit, albeit through no good of Putin, mostly thanks to the high gaz prices. And sure, the situation for the poorest citizen is way worst than it was as many of the security blankets have been withdraw ruthlessly, but the situation for the average Russian is not worst than it was.

furthermore, bas as Putin is for democracy, I do believe than he has yet to roll the situation back to were it was during the good ol' times of the KGB...


Sorry, I meant the czar or Yeltsin.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2009 :  16:48:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Having corrected myself, I'm not convinced that the average Russian is better off now than during the days of the U.S.S.R., but I don't have all the particulars.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Hittman
Skeptic Friend

134 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2009 :  18:31:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Hittman's Homepage Send Hittman a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Perhaps we should send for someone who can share their first hand experiences with us.

http://www.russianbrides.com/

When a vampire Jehovah's Witness knocks on your door, don't invite him in. Blood Witness: http://bloodwitness.com

Get Smartenized® with the Quick Hitts blog: http://www.davehitt.com/blog2/index.phpBlog
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chaloobi
SFN Regular

1620 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2009 :  06:17:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send chaloobi a Yahoo! Message Send chaloobi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interestingly Toyota has asked for 2 billion in loans from the Japanese government on the heals of losing five billion dollars last year. I guess they don't have a business model that works either. Well, there's still Honda, I guess.

-Chaloobi

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