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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 12/01/2008 : 20:50:25 [Permalink]
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hawks said:
| That's a very small brag. |
To borrow a phrase from the online gaming community...
PWND!
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2008 : 21:11:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Mab said:
They were living in Sweden...
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Well, damnit, air out your spare room and stock up the pantry! You can expect me next week!
No doubt I would blend into the population there, right up until I started speaking anyway.
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Just make sure you're displaying a Canadian flag, and everything will be peachy... 
(Edited spelling) |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 12/01/2008 21:12:40 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2008 : 12:07:27 [Permalink]
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Morals are imposed on Christians as well as Atheists. When you have people living in a free society in the same community that have different world views laws will be inacted that seem to impose differing morals on others.
I can agree that religious churches should be taxed like the rest of society as long as there is not a specific tax for religious organizations.
I get that Atheists are paying for in taxes support for the boy scouts which they are not a part of. But that is not unique to atheists. Tax dollares go to organizations religious people do not support as well. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2008 : 12:24:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Morals are imposed on Christians as well as Atheists. When you have people living in a free society in the same community that have different world views laws will be inacted that seem to impose differing morals on others.
I can agree that religious churches should be taxed like the rest of society as long as there is not a specific tax for religious organizations.
I get that Atheists are paying for in taxes support for the boy scouts which they are not a part of. But that is not unique to atheists. Tax dollares go to organizations religious people do not support as well.
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There is a difference between tax dollars going to an organization that you do not support, and tax dollars going to an organization that you are not allowed to join. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2008 : 13:27:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Originally posted by Robb
Morals are imposed on Christians as well as Atheists. When you have people living in a free society in the same community that have different world views laws will be inacted that seem to impose differing morals on others.
I can agree that religious churches should be taxed like the rest of society as long as there is not a specific tax for religious organizations.
I get that Atheists are paying for in taxes support for the boy scouts which they are not a part of. But that is not unique to atheists. Tax dollares go to organizations religious people do not support as well.
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There is a difference between tax dollars going to an organization that you do not support, and tax dollars going to an organization that you are not allowed to join.
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Furthermore, some laws which are based on mainly on Christian morality are sometime imposed on Atheists (Prohibition of gay marriage; prohibition of stem-cell research; prohibition of euthanasia; prohibition of alcohol sale on Sunday in the dry counties...) while I can't think of any law imposed on Christians which is based on a purely atheistic world view... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2008 : 21:52:01 [Permalink]
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One of the comments on this video reads: | You're not railing against religion. You're railing against christianity. Pretty much everything you mention originates from christianity (unless I misunderstood some things, the music was kinda distracting). I still say that many of the things that you mention as wrong with religion, are really things wrong with power. It's the people in power that decide what people not in power can and cannot do. Christianity just happens to have been the religion in power for most of the modern western history |
I agree with this except I'd even modify by adding "traditional" in front of Christianity since many modern day sects of Christianity are big time into environmental causes and other progressive causes.
That said, I agree with this woman's overall argument. Everyone should care about every institution which impacts society. All institutions should be up for public scrutiny and criticism. And she pointed out many things about Christianity which progressive Christians and secular humanists alike find distasteful, dumb, or dangerous.
It is also nice to see yet another young woman on the secular movement scene. I really think this movement is experiencing a whole new wave of energy and style.
Rob wrote: | Morals are imposed on Christians as well as Atheists. When you have people living in a free society in the same community that have different world views laws will be inacted that seem to impose differing morals on others. |
I agree that Christians have been oppressed by laws in many societies. However, I'd like to know in what ways Christians are prevented from making their own lifestyle choices in modern American society.
| I can agree that religious churches should be taxed like the rest of society as long as there is not a specific tax for religious organizations. |
I'd be satisfied if each individual religious institutions had to pay the money and apply for 501c3 status and prove they are a charity in order to get the status - just like the rest of us. Freethought and humanist groups can avoid paying taxes. But we have to do a bunch of paperwork and pay a fee first.
| I get that Atheists are paying for in taxes support for the boy scouts which they are not a part of. But that is not unique to atheists. Tax dollares go to organizations religious people do not support as well. |
No no no. The issue is not that atheists don't support the boy scouts. Plenty of atheists do. The issue is that atheists are prevented from participating because they are atheists. Show me a single institution in the United States that received tax dollars that openly refuses to hire Christians or allow them membership. It doesn't exist because religious discrimination is illegal. Unless you are so unpopular that nobody cares. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2008 : 22:49:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Show me a single institution in the United States that received tax dollars that openly refuses to hire Christians or allow them membership. |
A Jewish charity?
Seriously: do the Boy Scouts actually receive Federal funds, or is it just the case that all of us pay more in taxes because they don't? The BSA collects dues from members and can't go a meeting without discussing popcorn sales. If they were Federally funded to any large amount, I would think they'd be less focused on money than they are. (Which is one reason my kid isn't in the org - I couldn't take the more-or-less constant funding discussions.)| It doesn't exist because religious discrimination is illegal. |
Religious discrimination is perfectly legal for religious groups, which is why (for example) Ken Ham's Creation Museum can demand that their janitors and Webmasters sign a statement of faith in order to be hired. That exemption is one of the larger ones in the equal employment laws.
And it's one of the exemptions that I agree with, because the idea that an atheist group should be forced to hire a Fundamentalist Christian as treasurer just because he's the best-qualified candidate that answered the ad doesn't sit well with me. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2008 : 01:35:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
...
Religious discrimination is perfectly legal for religious groups, which is why (for example) Ken Ham's Creation Museum can demand that their janitors and Webmasters sign a statement of faith in order to be hired. That exemption is one of the larger ones in the equal employment laws.
And it's one of the exemptions that I agree with, because the idea that an atheist group should be forced to hire a Fundamentalist Christian as treasurer just because he's the best-qualified candidate that answered the ad doesn't sit well with me.
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But wait!: Can an atheist group really legally discriminate on the basis of religion? How many atheist organizations are registered as religions?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 12/04/2008 01:37:10 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2008 : 03:39:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Can an atheist group really legally discriminate on the basis of religion? |
Under the law, atheism is considered a religion. That is, any legal protection or privileges provided to religious groups automatically extend to atheistic groups as well.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2008 : 04:29:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Can an atheist group really legally discriminate on the basis of religion? |
Under the law, atheism is considered a religion. That is, any legal protection or privileges provided to religious groups automatically extend to atheistic groups as well.
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Whew! Good.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2008 : 13:53:40 [Permalink]
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Dave wrote: Name a specific one which has such a policy and receives public funds. I went to a Catholic school which received some public funds, but because they received those funds they were required to abide by certain public standards which includes non-discrimination in hiring (which legally includes religions) and following state education standards (teaching evolution in biology class, etc.)
The reason Faith-based initiatives are controversial is because it allows government funds to go directly to religious organizations which often openly discriminate in their hiring practices, and this should be illegal. I don't care if a private institution wants to discriminate, but publicly funded ones shouldn't be able to.
| Seriously: do the Boy Scouts actually receive Federal funds, or is it just the case that all of us pay more in taxes because they don't? |
Yes they have often received funds, and in some cases have lost it because of their discriminatory practices. The feds seem quite happy to encourage public funding of them; from this Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_membership_controversies
in February 2005, the House passed a resolution by a vote of 418 to 7, stating that "the Department of Defense should continue to exercise its long-standing statutory authority to support the activities of the BSA, in particular the periodic national and world Scout jamborees."[87]
President Bush addresses the 2005 National Scout Jamboree at Fort A.P. Hill in Virginia.
The U.S. Congress has twice passed bills in response to the governmental resources access controversy. In 2001, the U.S. Congress passed the Boy Scouts of America Equal Access Act, which encouraged the BSA's access to educational facilities. In July 2005, the Senate voted 98 to 0 in favor of the Support Our Scouts Act, enacted in December 2005, which encourages both governmental support of the Boy Scouts in general and federal support of the national Scout jamboree. |
Here's one case where they lost their public benefits: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2006/10/16/state/n075532D70.DTL And here's a pending case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cradle_of_Liberty_Council_v._City_of_Philadelphia
More Dave: Religious discrimination is perfectly legal for religious groups, which is why (for example) Ken Ham's Creation Museum can demand that their janitors and Webmasters sign a statement of faith in order to be hired. That exemption is one of the larger ones in the equal employment laws.
And it's one of the exemptions that I agree with, because the idea that an atheist group should be forced to hire a Fundamentalist Christian as treasurer just because he's the best-qualified candidate that answered the ad doesn't sit well with me. |
Again, I agree too, so long as such groups aren't allowed any public funding.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 12/04/2008 13:55:34 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2008 : 14:01:37 [Permalink]
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| If it turns out there are Jewish organizations which receive public funds and have discriminatory hiring practices, that is wrong and should be illegal. That said, if it exists in the USA, I dare say it would impact very few people, and could thereby easily get by unnoticed by a fair-minded general public, since there are relatively few Jewish institutions that discriminate in their hiring practices (I've had several non-Jewish friends who have worked at Jewish centers and schools.) But if any religious institution which receives federal funds is permitted to discriminate in hiring against those who don't agree with their worldview, and the government goes forth funding more faith-based private institutions, we're going to have a lot of secular social workers out of work, and that will negatively impact a lot of people. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2008 : 17:05:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Can an atheist group really legally discriminate on the basis of religion? |
Under the law, atheism is considered a religion. That is, any legal protection or privileges provided to religious groups automatically extend to atheistic groups as well.
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Whew! Good.
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Wow.
I guess "bald" is legally a hair color, then. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2008 : 17:58:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Can an atheist group really legally discriminate on the basis of religion? |
Under the law, atheism is considered a religion. That is, any legal protection or privileges provided to religious groups automatically extend to atheistic groups as well.
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Whew! Good. |
Wow.
I guess "bald" is legally a hair color, then.
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And if special legal protections applied to differing hair colors, you would want bald to be considered a hair color in the eyes of the law. At least I would, since I'm bald.
But it's less a contradiction than you think. Atheism has simply been recognized as being in the same legal "category" as religion. Meaning for example that the right to religious freedom, which entails the personal right to ascribe to whichever religion one's conscience dictates, must also include the right to ascribe to none. That's a good thing, otherwise religious groups could persecute atheist groups on the basis that we have no constitutional right to hold no religion. In fact, I've actually heard some idiot Christians try to argue just that.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Why atheists care about fighting religion
