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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
 Posted - 12/02/2008 : 11:24:07
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I'm having fun with some idiot on yet another religous blog. Great fun. (Man, I need a life).
His method is to basically dodge by saying that his group of xians doesn't go for that particular scripture. A variation of the "no true Scotsman" ploy.
This is my latest reply to Javier: The bolded words in the quotes is him quoting me from an earlier response. The italicized words in the quotes is his reply to me.
===
Javier said...quoting me
Well, why don't you ask your god whether those verses should be in there or not, instead of relying on fallible human scholarship?
Why should I? I know they don't belong there. It seems you're the one who doesn't |
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Maybe that's because I don't have this "pipeline" to the author like you do.
Guess what? Every Christian sect out there who has a different interpretation of the various verses in the bible would also say the same thing you just did! So, the problem stands. You believe your interpretation is right, so what?
After all, aren't you people able to talk to your god or are the verses that imply that also later additions?
I talk to God all the time, he speaks to me through his scripture are you embarrasing yourself again by not understanding Christian doctrine as it pertains to God's revealed will, and how he speaks to His people today? |
Nope. Every christian I know claims that he speaks to them through the scriptures as you also claim, but there are still all those problems of different interpretations.
The problem stands. Deal with it.
As an aside: what's prayer for then, if not communing with this deity of yours?
| *Btw* read the rules you will be banned from this site if you do not capitalize God and Jesus** |
I used the phrase "your god" as a reference, not a proper name.
Then, once the debate is settled, then you can see if I'm "embarrassing" myself. If there is a legitimate debate, you're standing on the same kind of shaky ground I am.
No need to see you've made it quite clear. |
Yes. If there's a debate still going on then that means that you don't have any real right to just assert that Mark 16 ends at verse 8.
Once the debate is settled, THEN you can say that.
By the way, what about the legitimate debates as to the timing of the writing of the gospels, or their authorship?
They're legitimate. So what? |
That's debatable, but anyway, the point was that there are a lot of debates going on about this holy book of yours. Why is that the case if you people claim that that book is how it's author communicates with you?
Do you accept that as a "legitimate" debate too, or is there only a legitimate debate about the part of the bible that one can actually test?
I reject the extra portion of Mark on the basis that it lacks manuscript evidence and scholars on both sides of the spectrum do also. See Dan Wallace and the 'venerable' Bart Erhman. |
And other people accept them...some have even pointed out that other parts of the bible are also missing from the oldest manuscripts.
There is also one part from Mark 16 that you've left out: 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover
Many denominations go for that "laying on of hands stuff" to "cure" diseases. What about your denomination?
I know that some Reformed Baptists are cessationists and believe that the miracles the apostles did aren't done anymore. If your particular group actually goes against that, then your position about the poison drinking is weakened.
If your group does believe that those type of NT miracles are not done anymore, then great. Let me know when the argument over Mark 16:9-18 is over ok?
Is there a debate about the part of the bible where your "Lord" tells his disciples that if they believe, they'll be able to do all sorts of miracles like he could?
No, because I believe they did miracles. |
And why? You've just blindly said that you accept those miracles. What's the evidence that those miracles actually happened?
Besides, if "miracles" exist, what's one more miracle? You know, drinking poison for example?
Sure...just as soon as you people can get it straight as to just who the "real" christians" are!
I just hear a whiny skeptic who didn't know who he was dealing with and decided to over generalize. |
Whiny? Huh? Whatever floats your boat. If you believers feel compelled by the "Holy Spirit" to make guesses about my personality, fine. I can give it right back.
Could you point out the actual "whine" though? I want to see if it means what you think it means.
By the way, why don't you tell us which denomination has the correct interpretation of "God's Word" then? I'm assuming that the true believers would have the proper interpretation.
I hear that Catholics aren't real christians, I hear that Protestants aren't. Now it sounds like it's the "irrational hyper Pentecostals" who aren't, and the "Reformed Southern Baptists" are. Tell me, which version of the Southern Baptists were the ones who defended slavery, by the way? Were they real christians as well?
Wow. You're all over the place. Apparently you have a minimal understanding of Protestantism and the distinctive doctrines in Protestant traditions as opposed to Roman Catholic doctrines. Also, what does affirming slavery have to do with the pitiful response you gave to Trish regarding her labeling of the admitted hedonist. |
Man, you're slow. The point about slavery was in response to your talking about the different groups of christians out there who are basing their denominations on different interpretations of the bible. Remember your comment about the "irrational hyper Pentecostals"?
What makes you so sure that they're wrong and your group the Reformed Southern Baptists is right? In other words, which group has interpreted the word of your deity correctly?
My comment about slavery was a shot at you Baptists since I know that you people had a little schism about slavery a while back. Which group of Baptists back then had the proper interpretation of "the Word"?
| Are you faulting a 21st century Baptist for the errors of a 20th century Baptist? Can I fault you for the errors of atheists? Communism? The Chinese government? |
Only if you can find some "holy book" that all of us subscribe to, which has rules that we're all supposed to follow, but yet the different groups have interpreted those rules differently. You know, like with all your Christian denominations and the bible?
Try to keep up, please.
No, it doesn't. A hedonist is a person who loves to party. Not all people do. Nice attempt at dodging Trish's ad-hom attack against that guy though.
My, you're dense. You defined Hedonism in your post and then you contradict yourself:
Ah yes, I forgot to note the dictionary definition of what a Hedonist is:
"a person whose life is devoted to the
pursuit of pleasure and self-gratification." |
Pot, kettle, black Sherlock. What I said was A hedonist is a person who loves to party. Not all people do. The dictionary definition just elaborated more.
Besides, it's by the dictionary definition that Trish's statement about the guy being a hedonist is wrong. He nowhere said that his life was devoted to it. He just said he liked to party. It's a difference in quantity here.
Try again, only be awake this time eh?
It looks to me that you are ignorant about the "scholarship" of your own holy book and yet are willing to castigate others about it.
No, I'm aware of the opposing side which is why I pointed out that there was a debate regarding the last twelve verses. Mr. Dense. |
And I just pointed out, genius, that since there IS a debate about it, you don't really have a right to just arbitarily dismiss those verses until the debate is settled. Remember what you said just before you admitted that there's a debate about it? You said: Mark 16 ends at verse 8.
Here's a clue: That's something that one would say one the debate is over!
I pointed out some people's reasons for keeping those verses in the bible. You pointed out some people who think that those verses should go. Once the debates, over in your favour, then you'd be free to dismiss them.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
Edited by - the_ignored on 12/02/2008 11:28:07
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2008 : 11:42:28 [Permalink]
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You have not posted this one yet or is it having problem passing through the filter?
Obviously, the problem with believing in the literacy of the totality of the Bible is that many of its part has since been proven wrong (its clearly implicit flat earth cosmology for example or the cud chowing rabbits) and even contradict itself at time (the various creation account, to start with).
Yet, if you start being selective about which parts are true, you quickly run into the problem of whether any parts are true at all. Furthermore, you can pretty much pick up the parts you like to support just about any position, thus rendering it useless as a guide.
That is the reason why we still see so many apologetics, despite many of their claim being nothing short of ridiculous (with creationists being the most rabidly retarded example). |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
 Posted - 12/02/2008 : 17:09:18 [Permalink]
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It's one of those blogs where it has to pass moderator approval first.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2008 : 06:16:36 [Permalink]
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| Ive just discovered, through my direct link, only four words are legitimate in the Bible, "There is no God" everything else is invalid, cause I say so. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2008 : 08:17:34 [Permalink]
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Wow, this guy is an asshole. He's made a blog post about me. Gee, I'm honoured.
He likes to call people dense...get a load of this:
My comment about slavery was a shot at you Baptists since I know that you people had a little schism about slavery a while back. Which group of Baptists back then had the proper interpretation of "the Word"?
The ones I'm defending, why would i defend any other?
He's not quite getting it, is he? I asked him which version of the Baptists back then were right, the ones who opposed slavery or the ones who supported it. What the hell eh?
Read near the end of his reply to me. I've gotten him to admit that his religion, or at least his holy book, is just a point of debate! Shit, I didn't think that would work.
EDIT: my reply.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 12/03/2008 10:23:40 |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2008 : 10:25:05 [Permalink]
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Oh, eff this. Look at the reasonings this guy is giving in this other post.
I can't believe I'm wasting time on this dolt.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2008 : 10:26:38 [Permalink]
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Maybe if you'd make it very clear, speak very slowly and avoid complicated words?
'They are many diverging interpretation of the Bible. You consider yours and that of your sect of Christianity to be the only correct one. On which objective criteria are you basing this claim? Because, without such an objective proof, you have no more right to claim having the right interpretation of the Bible that the gnostics that claim that the whole physical world was a lie put on by Satan or the many, many guys that claim themselves to be Jesus returned (and I am including that dude in Texas that claims God wants him to bang his daughter in law and lie naked with underaged girls).'
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2008 : 16:59:41 [Permalink]
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My two cents worth, t_i:
If you want to got to all the frustrating bother of debating an authoritarian zealot like this (and you do it very, very well), it would be wise to have those debates in fora that are more widely read, especially by the undecided. Otherwise, you heap futility upon the unavoidable frustration of the situation.
Also, a forum in which one proponent is able to set arbitrary rules such as requiring "god" to be spelled with a capital G or face banning, seems unacceptable on the face of it for a debate between True Believers and Freethinkers.
Such a debate is best in a freer forum, in front of a larger and more general audience.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 12/03/2008 17:00:55 |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2008 : 17:17:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
My two cents worth, t_i:
If you want to got to all the frustrating bother of debating an authoritarian zealot like this (and you do it very, very well), it would be wise to have those debates in fora that are more widely read, especially by the undecided. Otherwise, you heap futility upon the unavoidable frustration of the situation.
Also, a forum in which one proponent is able to set arbitrary rules such as requiring "god" to be spelled with a capital G or face banning, seems unacceptable on the face of it for a debate between True Believers and Freethinkers.
Such a debate is best in a freer forum, in front of a larger and more general audience.
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hah. To back up your point, check out her blog again. (The first link in this thread). My last two posts have been removed. 
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2008 : 17:21:43 [Permalink]
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| Mr. Dense, this is your first and only warning, if you publish anything insulting to Christ, or God you will be banned from commenting on my blog. I will also recommend that you be removed from posting comments on Trishas blog as well. |
The hypocritical asshole. He can name-call all he wants, but if I dare insult his beliefs...I'm banned. Fuck him. I'm going to blister that idiots's eyes the next time I post on his little blog. I'll just have to save the comment for here.
EDIT: My last reply to him...
Man, you're one hell of a hypocrite. Typical xian...you can insult other people's beliefs and act childish all you like, but if anyone dares insult your beliefs, they're banned.
So be it. I'll publish my last reply to you somewhere else and I'll just send you the link. If you're man enough to face me on a place where you can't set the rules then fine.
If not, you can stay here and have a hissy fit everytime someone insults a person, or who seems to insult a person, who's been dead for two thousand years.
How in hell do you characters do any street preaching done if you're so easily pissed off? |
I don't care if they insult me too much, or even if he insults my fellow "nincompoops" as he does in his reply. It's the hypocrosy that gets me.
Ah well. Since my last reply will end up being here, I can afford to wait a while then.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 12/03/2008 17:32:56 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2008 : 18:26:16 [Permalink]
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| Ha; Ig, crusading against people stupidity and hypocrisy is like fighting windmills... windmills with MACHINE GUNS! |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2008 : 18:29:27 [Permalink]
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I wouldn't bother posting on any blog that will ban you for not capitalizing god and jebus.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2008 : 18:39:32 [Permalink]
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| His last post is the usual apologetic abandon of reason: 'Sure, by our logic and moral standards, God is an evil retard. But let's not apply these standards to him, shall we?' |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2008 : 18:54:31 [Permalink]
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I did leave a comment too:
This is a bit of a conundrum, though.
Either we apply our logic and moral standards to God, and reach the conclusion that he is the biggest evil that ever existed or we surrender all reason and moral to him. I find this extremely unsatisfactory.
After all, God, being all knowledgeable, all powerful and all-good should, logically be held to higher standard than our flawed self.
The argument that he created us and can do what he pleases with his creation is flawed.
If I were to clone another human being, grow him in vitro, I could say, with some justifications, that I created this being. Yet, I would not be morally free to do as I please with him.
The other argument is that, being all powerful, we'd better obey or be punished which is the argument of a tyrant and a bully.
Furthermore, surrendering all moral judgement and applying blindly God's will, as Abraham did, is ultimately very dangerous.
Hitler, that you mention several time, did refer to himself many times as doing God's will and the SS that guarded the concentration camp had this lovely little moto engraved on their belt buckle: 'Gott mint uns'; 'God with us'...
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I don't know if he will clear it for publishing or not and am not particularly planning on sticking around to check out. The guy does not seem to have anything to say that was not said better and by smarter people before him... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2008 : 20:00:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
His last post is the usual apologetic abandon of reason: 'Sure, by our logic and moral standards, God is an evil retard. But let's not apply these standards to him, shall we?'
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Why does God create children who will be kidnapped, raped and tortured and then murdered by a serial killer?
Because God will do as he please with His creation and has a purpose in even these things.
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Holy Crap. Does he even think about what he is writing? Seeing children kidnapped, raped, and tortured is pleasing to his god. Because his god has a purpose for such heinous acts of brutality against children. Complete and total nonsense. This guy turns my stomach. I can't believe I am actually getting angry. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2008 : 20:18:15 [Permalink]
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The idea is that 'it's all part of God's plan'. Sure it does not seem to make sense, but that's because we do not see the whole plan.
Sure it might seem cruel and the end generally do not justify the means... except in this case. 'cause God created us and he is allowed to do whatever he pleases with his creation... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Time for a smackdown
