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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 12/08/2008 : 17:11:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by the_ignored
Ok, I lied. This is my last reply.
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That thread is something, eh?
Still, speaking for myself, I wouldn't waste my time on those people...
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it's a dirty job, but somebody does it.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2008 : 09:34:25 [Permalink]
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Gotta love it...now he's going after moakley in particular and us in general...
This guy doesn't seem to be able to figure out that pointing out an example of (what everyone would consider an immoral act when done by a human) is done by his god, that it's an example that refutes the notion of his god being "good". Instead, like the typical apologist he is, he just calls us "emos" for doing it.
What's his "logical" reason for assuming that baby killing is wrong when a human does it, even if it's for some "higher" plan the human has? Or would he even consider it wrong then?
I guess the needless fear, pain, suffering, and the loss of potential future generations of people that would result from that baby's being killed off doesn't count as "logical" reasons to object to baby-killing either.
On the other hand, "God" says it: Bang!
for now. Could you clarify this for me? Would you go on war raids with specific orders to kill women and children?
Yup. Pass me my Hackenstabber 3 Iron, boy.
the norm." I did not say these raids were unplanned. I only said that they involved the killing of women and children by hacking and stabbing. Do you disagree with this description?
Nope, just having some entertainment at your expense. Or haven't you figured that out yet? It's so amusing to watch you play these little emotional games and throw your head out the window for the sake of your heart. |
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 12/09/2008 09:44:50 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2008 : 11:08:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the_ignored
Gotta love it...now he's going after moakley in particular and us in general...
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Thanks for keeping me informed. My reply. Should be my last reply. There is plenty of truth in Kil's opinion.
Since morality is itself confined to the chemical reactions in the brain and has no transcendant value, I could care less what another modified ape has to say about my treatment of another modified ape.
Belief beyond all reason. There is nothing more that needs to be said. Good Luck Javier.
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Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2008 : 11:52:32 [Permalink]
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Here is my humble participation to the debate.
I wish I knew how to bolden part, though.
What you do not seem to understand is that theists have to come by for a reason why a just God would allow for the suffering and pain of innocents.
As for atheists:
there is no real reason aside from chance processes working together in this pointless universe that is cycling into oblivion. As if that somehow provides some security or sense of comfort.
No, the idea is not to provide security or sense of comfort. The idea is to be factually true, at least, the atheist argument is internally coherent.
It is (some) religious people that, upon realizing that there is no objective proof for their belief, just find the idea of a divinity more comforting. Of course, what is comforting and what we'd like to be true as no bearing about what reality IS.
Since morality is itself confined to the chemical reactions in the brain and has no transcendant value, I could care less what another modified ape has to say about my treatment of another modified ape.
Well, sure, if you leave out the hardwired ability for empathy that made our evolution has a social specie successful so far.
Of course, morality being a social construct rather than handed down to us from some divinity does not make it any less real. I guess that the fact that men invented medicine, rather than receiving it as a gift from Apollo makes it worthless too.
What I did say was that in God's purpose moral calamities can happen in order to establish a greater goal. This is simply the way God works in creation
So, is the murder of children acceptable if you have a plan to justify it? If some mad scientist were to unleash a deadly virus killing 90% of the population, so that the survivor would be able to leave more comfortably, that'd be ok? The end justifies the mean?
This interesting moral relativism is not consistent with your statement about ‘trancendant values'.
Furthermore, we are not talking about a mad scientist here. We are talking about an omnipotent godly being.
Being omnipotent, there is no reason why his plan had to include all this misery. You'd argue that there was no way for people to be saved again without being damned first… Except that, there had to be a way. He is omnipotent; there always is a way for him to do anything he pleases.
Obviously he could have made his plan possible without all this suffering, because he could do absolutely everything.
Therefore, the suffering was unnecessary. God just choose to discard the painless plan and inflict it on us for no reason, which is about as close from the ultimate evil as I can think.
There is just plain no way around it, either omnipotent and evil or good but with limited powers.
Traditionally, the answer is to argue that we argument is to say that we just cannot understand the divine plan. This is a cop-out, of course; I don't have to understand the motivation behind somebody's action to judge the morality of these actions. And it does not address the idea that, regardless of what the plan was, being omnipotent, God could have achieved the exact same results without all the pain.
Another argument basically boils down to ‘God says so. He is the boss and he is mighty, he can do what he pleases with his creation'. This argument is nothing more than ‘Might makes right'. God can do whatever he pleases because he is the biggest bully around.
In comparison, the atheist viewpoint might be grimmer: ‘there is no transcendent reason for the way things are what they are. Our world is just the purposeless consequence of a cold indifferent universe; some of these consequences just appear to fall in line with the feeling of our own morality, while others do not'.
It might be grimmer (although, many atheists would argue it preferable than to be pawn is a sadistic game of cosmi |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2008 : 16:03:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Here is my humble participation to the debate.
I wish I knew how to bolden part, though.
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I think the simplest way is to write the post in this forum post edit, with all the formatting you need (bold and italics), then copy the post to a simple word processor, and find-and-replace all [ to < and all ] to > then you'll be set. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2008 : 20:26:55 [Permalink]
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Ok; posting here got me used in using the stuff, now that I know I just have to replace them by <; I will probably use it.
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 19:21:50 [Permalink]
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Well, our "holy spirit" led friend is at it again (you can tell that he's filled with the power of the holy spirit by the fact that he likes to call people "dense" and "morons")...what I don't understand is, he's making new posts when really, the topic is close enough to the conversation that he may as well just make a comment on the previous post.
I think that I'll stop commenting on this guy: He's got nothing new to say and despite the free publicity I'm giving him here, he's still not getting all that many people going to his little blog.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 22:51:13 [Permalink]
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Wow… He is getting pissy, ain't he?
Ok, let me get at it one more time.
I will try to make my last time, it is obvious at this point that reasoning is useless and posting serves no purpose but angering me. I know myself though and will have troubles keeping myself from answering the BS he will make out of my post.
Yes it is, for one who is unwilling to submit to revealed scripture.
In other word: ‘it only seems like a logical contradiction if you think about it. If you are careful enough not to let your brain err in this direction, you might never notice that it does not make sense'.
The very fact that you want to argue that we are focal point, also militates against your position that this universe is a bunch of randomness of which men are a byproduct destined for dust.
Obviously and that was my whole point.
If you believe in an ultimately good and just God, you run into this contradiction. If you don't and believe the universe does not care about us, then you don't have this contradiction, which, in itself make the atheist position logically consistent while that of the average religious person is not.
But then again, you are not the average religious person:
God created this world for His purpose and men are not His focal point, He is His own focal point
Ok, that one, kudos. Sincerely. I am not sure I ever heard that position before. Most religious people I talked with tend to adopt a default anthropocentric position…
Of course, it does not change anything.
God does not have one focal point. Being infinite, omnipotent and omniscient, he has an infinity of focal points. And logically one of them have to be us, considering all the trouble he went through for our sake (sending his only son and all that).
And, of course, that does not answer the question about why did his purpose have to include any suffering at all.
Here, God did not only create a universe that served his purpose. He created a universe that served his purpose and decided to put some unnecessary suffering in it.
It is one thing to walk purposely along the street and not notice the homeless man; quite another to walk purposely along the street, making sure to step on the homeless guy.
We may not impose our moral standards on God, since he imposes them on us
Why not? The guy that edict the law should be expected to be the first one to comply to it.
Either moral standards are universal and apply even to God, or they are not.
If God act in a way that would qualify a man as evil, then God acts evilly and, considering that this behavior is consistent, could justifiably be qualified as evil. Simple as that.
Man alone cannot demonstrate a moral standard without appealing to something outside. But you may attempt to try to demonstrate how chemical reactions in the brain can become moral standards that can be imposed by humans to other humans.
While this is another subject entirely, you could start here that would, at least cover the Golden Rule which is about the only universal moral standard there is.
And that higher standard can excuse evil as a means of establishing his own purpose.
Which is an example of moral relativism that you used as an insult earlier. Of course, it does not answer the question as to why is it a necessary means? God, being omnipotent, had no restriction as to how to achieve his purpose. He could have achieved it by any means he wanted. He did not need any, really, to achieve what he wanted. Yet, suffering is here. Unnecessary and Godly condoned…
So you say, usually when an assertion is made its supported by an argument.
Which I did |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2008 : 15:40:51 [Permalink]
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Wham!
Originally posted by Simon
So, you are saying that God is a monkey? Well, that would at least explain Ray Comfort's fascination for banana as a tool against atheism. Well, that and basic Freudian psychology, of course. |
This quote made my day! I hope I didn't wake my wife by laughing out that whole-heartedly. (She went to bed 1˝ hours ago... I'm still up checking that everyone is Right on the Internet)
By the way, scientific research does suggest that monkeys and apes do behave morally.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 12/13/2008 15:42:28 |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2008 : 14:03:17 [Permalink]
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Well, he's made yet another post where he complains about us.
Why does he keep making new posts? Why not just make his remarks in the comments section of the previous posts? It's not like he's coming up with anything new.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2008 : 14:41:27 [Permalink]
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This Javier character is a tool unworthy of our attention. At least Dipshit Dan is sane enough to have a modicum of readers, where as I believe the only significant hits Javier has are ours.
Fishy Trish seems to have abandoned her older threads to new rantings.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2008 : 16:16:50 [Permalink]
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Ok... now I need to explain why the murdering of innocent is evil.
I am not going to do it. It's useless. But, here is what I'd answer to him.
Ok, what about: it is in the 10 commandments. Obviously, you will argue that these commandments do not apply to God. But still, it shows that murder is evil. God is complacent to every single murder so he is allowing evil and hence is evil himself.
Really, I shouldn't have to demonstrate that murder and the suffering of innocent is bad. If anything, it is the default position for the wide majority of people in the history of mankind. It definitively is the default opinion of all but a few psychopathic personality in Western culture.
In other word, it is the default position of society and the burden of proof is yours to demonstrate we are wrong.
As for why does God being omnipotent means he should exist without evil, it is not really what I meant.
I tried to be clear but I suspect you are purposely failing to understand. Here it is:
Suffering is unecessary for God's plan.
He is omnipotent; he can achieve every single result he wants without suffering. That does include atonement. To you and me, atonement requires sin and suffering to atone for; but God, being all powerful is able to find way around that.
Hence, sin; suffering are unnecessary for the success God's plans. They were only left here, because he felt like it.
So being all powerful does not mean that the world should be without suffering, it means that there is only suffering in this world because God want it to be. As such, God is the indirect source of all evil and suffering in the world.
You keep mentioning how I do not understand your position and hence your arguments. That might be true, but this is purely because you don't have any. Blind faith is not an argument. Refusing to think is not a position. Denying that there is a even a question to begin with is not winning an argument...
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Is it me or |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2008 : 14:40:26 [Permalink]
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Snort...Javier still hasn't gotten any hits yet it seems. Well, other than us for a while.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 12/22/2008 14:41:47 |
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Time for a smackdown
