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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2009 : 11:10:46 [Permalink]
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| It's not just that they have the money, it's that they own the media, they own the lobbyists and the think tanks, and give a lot of money to candidates, and pressure countries to go to war, and even start organizations like Move On and Human Rights Watch. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 02/25/2009 : 12:15:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Sorry if I put words in your mouth, I thought you were saying that Democrats and Republicans have not been the enemies of the poor.
Let me quote your exact words. You want to keep Obama's "feet to the fire," but then you seem to be saying it's important that the corporate media says that Obama is "off to a stupendously fast running start". Yes, he started before inauguration day by handing billions to the already wealthy. He started after inauguration day by watering down his plan to get three Republicans behind it. |
Thanks about the words-in-mouth.
No, I definitely consider some Democrats to be working against the poor. Basically, I see the rich as a necessary evil, who have to be watched and regulated carefully.
I say the the rich are necessary because I see no other fundamental mechanism than capitalism that can drive the complex engine of a modern economy. A state "command economy" seems never to have worked to produce widespread wealth.
They are "evil" in that they cannot be trusted with the unsupervised control of that economic engine. Forever in fierce competition with one another, they constantly look for short-cuts and quick gains. Like a train engineer who keeps telling his firemen to throw in more coal, they risk blowing up their engine unless the boiler pressure is regulated by a pressure relief valve.
Capital always shoots itself in the foot when it thinks to lift itself by pushing down the poor, and it is always returning to this tactic. In my opinion, the poor and their advocates do best when they work to control the excesses of the rich, modifying but not destroying the basic engine of the "free market."
The long-term wealth of the rich depends upon a society being prosperous from the bottom up, though they more often than not forget this to their peril. Thus the need for regulations to rein in their greed and prevent self- (and economy-) destroying pig-outs like the Subprime Mortgage crisis.| Seriously, we will see what the next year or two brings. Hopefully, we will see a little of the change that so many people think they were voting for. His cabinet tells me that there will be none, but Obama is a bright, introspective, hard-working guy. Maybe he will, maybe we will make a difference. We'll all keep trying. We'd do best to be realistic about it though. |
Yes, we'll need to watch carefully, and keep up the heat.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/25/2009 12:59:34 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2009 : 12:43:20 [Permalink]
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Nothing wrong with capitalism as long as everyone realizes it doesn't work. Ends up being a religion, and no one wants to question it.
The problem, as always, is dogma. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2009 : 13:01:49 [Permalink]
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There is no perfect system. And since things change, even if we ever get it right it will probably not be right for the long haul. There will always have to be adjustments made. The best we can do is find a workable blend of systems, which is a moving target with a built in tension due to ideology, and keep our fingers crossed.
So yeah, capitalism doesn't work. But neither does any other ism in a pure form. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2009 : 13:16:18 [Permalink]
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So yeah, capitalism doesn't work. But neither does any other ism in a pure form.
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Well, if you could get a pure form, it might work, whatever that means. Only skepticfriends.org is in its pure form. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Hittman
Skeptic Friend
134 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2009 : 21:54:57 [Permalink]
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| I agree, but why do wealthy people work so hard to make sure there are so many poor people? |
Can you cite a few examples, please?
| In this economist opinion putting Japan's Lost Decade in perspective. |
So their massive spending plan didn't work because it wasn't massive enough? In that case, how many more trillions should we spend in the US?
| It's going to require what did the job before: New Deal style programs. |
Just found this: http://www.usnews.com/articles/business/economy/2008/04/11/did-the-new-deal-work.html
"Just how divided are experts? In 1995, economist Robert Whaples of Wake Forest University published a survey of academic economists that asked them if they agreed with the statement, "Taken as a whole, government policies of the New Deal served to lengthen and deepen the Great Depression." Fifty-one percent disagreed, and 49 percent agreed." So quoting economists isn't going to get us anywhere.
One undeniable effect of the new deal was the huge growth in government, which in turn resulted in less freedom for citizens. FDR went so far as to make it illegal to own gold. (You could own up to $100 dollars worth. Any more than that and you got a huge fine and jail time.) He created Social Security, a Ponzi scheme which has impoverished millions of senior citizens. (If they had been allowed to put the same amount of money in real retirement accounts they'd have far, far more, and it would have been real money they could pass on to their heirs, not something they had to rely on the whims of Big Brother to receive.) And since the government has spent all the surplus in SS, replacing it with IOUs (t-bills), that alone could bankrupt the country as boomers start retiring.
| I'm not just on the side of the poor, I actually am poor. Siding with the poor certainly isn't cynical, but I think giving up on both major political parties is cynical, especially in a time when one of them is just beginning to feel its populist oats. |
Me too. I've been on unemployment for months. I had a depressing conversation with a recruiter who helped me get a good job quite a while ago. He's telling me the same story I've heard all over: there's just nothing going on in my field. The few jobs that do come up get hundreds of responses from well qualified applicants.
Giving up on both major parties isn't cynical, it's realistic. They both suck, pretty much in the same ways for the same reasons. They don't know what the hell they're doing, and inevitably screw up everything they try.
| What we need is a Robin Hood who steals from the Rich and put that wealth into circulation at grassroot-level. |
Theft is always such a good solution. Just don't call it theft, call it taxes, pretend it's not theft, and all will be well.
| Nothing wrong with capitalism as long as everyone realizes it doesn't work. |
So what's your solution, socialism? Communism? Theftocracy?
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When a vampire Jehovah's Witness knocks on your door, don't invite him in. Blood Witness: http://bloodwitness.com
Get Smartenized® with the Quick Hitts blog: http://www.davehitt.com/blog2/index.phpBlog |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2009 : 22:07:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hittman
He created Social Security, a Ponzi scheme which has impoverished millions of senior citizens. (If they had been allowed to put the same amount of money in real retirement accounts they'd have far, far more, and it would have been real money they could pass on to their heirs, not something they had to rely on the whims of Big Brother to receive.)
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Sure thing, Hittman. I know everyone who has their retirement savings in the stock market right now are just ecstatic about all the money they are set to pass on to their heirs. Seriously, does reality have any affect on these fiscal platitude you've internalized, or are you pretty much immune to evidence at this point? You come off with all the credibility of a man standing in a burning building and touting the health benefits of smoke.
| Me too. I've been on unemployment for months. |
What? You have the gall to rail against the evils of government aid while being on the dole yourself? Wow. I guess reality really does have absolutely zero impact on your unhinged political ravings.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/25/2009 22:11:15 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2009 : 05:17:34 [Permalink]
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I say the the rich are necessary because I see no other fundamental mechanism than capitalism that can drive the complex engine of a modern economy. A state "command economy" seems never to have worked to produce widespread wealth.
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Capitalism has failed, and to the extent it "works," it works with a very large "command economy." Again, see the Pentagon, the Fed, the IMF, etc. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2009 : 06:40:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hittman
Originally posted by moakley
In this economist opinion putting Japan's Lost Decade in perspective.
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So their massive spending plan didn't work because it wasn't massive enough? In that case, how many more trillions should we spend in the US?
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No, it is simply not that black and white. They put the brakes on too soon due to concern over the deficits the government was incurring. The private sector was still in the mode of debt reduction so in order to keep the economy going the government becomes the spender of last resort. Once the private sector achieved its goal and starting investing and growing again, then the government should back off. Backing off by trying to reduce their debt. Unfortunately, we mostly get lawyers who are willing to govern not economist. So in good times and bad they have over spent. Too much focus on winning todays argument and not enough focus on what is best for the future of the country. Near term thinking for near term pleasure.
And here is another view of the lost decade that probably lines up more with your way of thinking.
Japan did nothing. It refused to acknowledge the breadth and depth of its problems, partly because banks are part of complex, societal cross-linking arrangements known as keiretsus. And because taking action would force it to admit it had handled this sector poorly. By the time Japan finally realized it had to take action, the problem was so ingrained and the losses had ballooned so much that it was too late for decisive action - only time and long-term policy changes could bring about the desired conclusion.
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But they do seem to be laying part of the blame on the Japanesse Government doing nothing initially.
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Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
| Edited by - moakley on 02/26/2009 10:35:07 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2009 : 10:02:56 [Permalink]
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So what's your solution, socialism? Communism? Theftocracy?
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My solution is to realize we're working with something that's deeply flawed, and figure out what is flawed, and what is useful in the system. In other words, try lose the dogma behind nationalism and capitalism and think. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2009 : 10:58:51 [Permalink]
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I say the the rich are necessary because I see no other fundamental mechanism than capitalism that can drive the complex engine of a modern economy. A state "command economy" seems never to have worked to produce widespread wealth.
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I disagree, but I really don't have a problem with the guy that wants a boat. Even a big boat. But the guy that wants a fleet of boats and cars and airplanes, and isn't satisfied until he sees Haitians eating mud pies so he can get those things, for that I have a problem. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2009 : 11:16:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by hholdings
When it comes to issues regarding the poor, republicans seem to be against them. When the same or similar issues relate to the rich, republicans seem to be for them. Take for example, republicans hate giving money to the poor who do not pay taxes. Nevertheless, they love opening up their pocketbooks to the rich in rewarding them with tax breaks. When money is given to the poor, republicans call it well fare. When they give it to big oil companies, they call it anything but well fare. Just seems odd!
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Because they're Christian? Read the New Testament, Jesus hated the poor too. |
-Chaloobi
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Hittman
Skeptic Friend
134 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2009 : 11:34:12 [Permalink]
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| I know everyone who has their retirement savings in the stock market right now are just ecstatic about all the money they are set to pass on to their heirs. |
And how much SS will they pass on to their heirs? My 401k was hit just as hard as anyone else's, but what's left is still my money, real money, not a stack of IOUs like the money in my SS account.
| You have the gall to rail against the evils of government aid while being on the dole yourself? |
I paid for unemployment insurance out of every paycheck I received. Classifying it as "on the dole" is the kind if dishonesty I've come to expect from you.
| And here is another view of the lost decade that probably lines up more with your way of thinking. |
It does. I could find a dozen articles that come up with the similar explanations, and someone else could find an equal number that say the exact opposite. So quoting experts (appeal to authority) isn't going to work for either side of this debate. Instead, let's rely on a bit of common sense.
A healthy economy is created by people buying goods and services. Every dollar taken from a man's pocket is a dollar he can't spend on food or rent or hamburgers. Take away most of his dollars and the economy is going to suffer drastically, not only from lack of cash flow, but because you've now provide a huge disincentive for him to work. Why make the extra effort to earn more if someone else gets most of the benefit?
But reduce the amount taken by force and he now has more money to spend, and a better incentive to increase his income through harder work, improving his education, maybe even taking the risk of starting his own business. Get a hundred million people doing that and the economy gets healthy in a hurry.
Middle class Americans spend 40-50% of their income in taxes. Most of them are so well hidden the majority of people think it's far less. Imagine how much better the economy would be if we were only paying 10 or 20% in taxes. This would, of course, require a substantial downsizing of the government, which no one feeding off that taxpayers teat wants to do.
| But the guy that wants a fleet of boats and cars and airplanes, and isn't satisfied until he sees Haitians eating mud pies so he can get those things, for that I have a problem. |
Again, some specific examples would be nice.
Yes, there are a few rich folks who hate the poor. And a few Republicans too. But most of the wealthy in this country got that way doing things that created jobs. And that's a good thing.
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When a vampire Jehovah's Witness knocks on your door, don't invite him in. Blood Witness: http://bloodwitness.com
Get Smartenized® with the Quick Hitts blog: http://www.davehitt.com/blog2/index.phpBlog |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2009 : 11:57:11 [Permalink]
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It does. I could find a dozen articles that come up with the similar explanations, and someone else could find an equal number that say the exact opposite. So quoting experts (appeal to authority) isn't going to work for either side of this debate. Instead, let's rely on a bit of common sense.
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Appeal to authority is only a fallacy if the authority you're appealing to has no authority in the discipline you're talking about. Like Deepak Chopra using his M.D. to sell hocum, or ight wingers who use their economics education to sell hocum.
A healthy economy is created by people buying goods and services. Every dollar taken from a man's pocket is a dollar he can't spend on food or rent or hamburgers. Take away most of his dollars and the economy is going to suffer drastically, not only from lack of cash flow, but because you've now provide a huge disincentive for him to work. |
Here we agree. Most of our money is taken to benefit the already wealthy. Again, see the "Defense Department."
Why make the extra effort to earn more if someone else gets most of the benefit?
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Now you're describing capitalism.
But reduce the amount taken by force and he now has more money to spend, and a better incentive to increase his income through harder work, improving his education, maybe even taking the risk of starting his own business. Get a hundred million people doing that and the economy gets healthy in a hurry.
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Absolutely
| But the guy that wants a fleet of boats and cars and airplanes, and isn't satisfied until he sees Haitians eating mud pies so he can get those things, for that I have a problem. |
Again, some specific examples would be nice.
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I just did. The guy who isn't satisfied until Haitians are eating mud pies.
Yes, there are a few rich folks who hate the poor. And a few Republicans too. But most of the wealthy in this country got that way doing things that created jobs. And that's a good thing.
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I doubt that most of these people hate anyone. It's a tendency in the system. Most of them got wealthy because of the government, not in spite of it.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 02/27/2009 09:46:31 |
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Hittman
Skeptic Friend
134 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2009 : 09:43:33 [Permalink]
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| Appeal to authority is only a fallacy if the authority you're appealing to has no authority in the discipline you're talking about. Like Deepak Chopra using his M.D. to sell hocum, or ight wingers who use their economics education to sell hocum. |
So if a left winger uses their economics education to sell hokum is that ok?
| Here we agree. Most of our money is taken to benefit the already wealthy. Again, see the "Defense Department." |
This is true, because the wealthy are the only ones who can afford to buy government weasels. This is an argument for a much smaller, much less powerful government.
Why make the extra effort to earn more if someone else gets most of the benefit?
| Now you're describing capitalism. |
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Absolute nonsense. The fact that my employer makes a profit off my work doesn't negate that I also make a profit. The problem comes when the government removes a significant portion of my personal profit in the form of high taxes. If I make a modest amount of money there's no reason for me to try to earn more. (I've talked to business people who have stakes in Europe, and they said its just about impossible to get workers there to work overtime. Their taxes are so high that their return for the extra work is small.) If I make a lot of money now my incentive is to protect and shelter it, rather than invest it for maximum return.
Again, some specific examples would be nice.
| I just did. The guy who isn't satisfied until Haitians are eating mud pies. |
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Which guy is that? What's his name? BTW, one example doesn't equal "a few." If this is so common it should be easy to provide several specific examples.
| I doubt that most of these people hate anyone. It's a tendency in the system. Most of them got wealthy because of the government, not in spite of it. |
With that in mind, what's a better way to spread the wealth, more government for the wealthy to manipulate, or less government, so they have to really earn their wealth?
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When a vampire Jehovah's Witness knocks on your door, don't invite him in. Blood Witness: http://bloodwitness.com
Get Smartenized® with the Quick Hitts blog: http://www.davehitt.com/blog2/index.phpBlog |
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Why do Republicans hate the poor?
