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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2009 : 09:51:01 [Permalink]
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Hittman, I doubt that anyone here is arguing for the huge government that we have. I'm not sure where we disagree, except that you think it's huge in order to help the poor get rich. It's huge to help the poor get poorer and the rich get richer.
Who's the guy that threw Aristide out of office? I think it was Bush and Clinton.
(edited to say it was Bush and Bush. Clinton put him back into office, but not before making sure that he wouldn't do anything to help anyone) |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 02/27/2009 10:31:50 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 02/27/2009 : 12:16:28 [Permalink]
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So if a left winger uses their economics education to sell hokum is that ok?
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No, but that wouldn't be a left-winger, that would be a Democrat. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2009 : 12:35:57 [Permalink]
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And how much SS will they pass on to their heirs? My 401k was hit just as hard as anyone else's, but what's left is still my money, real money, not a stack of IOUs like the money in my SS account.
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If it didn't have the potential for such misery, this would be very funny. The only thing the economy has been running on is the phony money printed by big business. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 02/27/2009 19:34:21 |
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WarfRat
New Member
49 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2009 : 15:33:57 [Permalink]
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I don't know if FDR envisioned SS to be a state retirement account for citizens. If that is what it was designed for, the gov't has been mismanaging for along time. I know I am not counting on it.
Our country is not a nation of wealth producers. We are consumers. The whole economy depends on us buying and selling crap.
I am amazed by the numbers being thrown around for the bank bailouts, mortgage bailouts, insurance bailouts, auto maker bailouts, and next will be Student Loan bailout. When it should have been first even before this crap happened.
On the subject of misery, economy and gov't indifference.
Student Loans are pure evil! I've never had one at all. But I have friends who are indebted, ENSLAVED to this vile putrid usurious practice for going on 15 years. Now that the economy is in a dowturn, they can't pay it back and pay rent. Where is the gov't help?
It should be grants not loans. The dividend is hard working industrious educated citizenry that contribute to the society at large. No some banker.
Had to get that off my chest.
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"I believe...that one benefits the workers...so much more by forcing through reforms which alleviate and strengthen their position, than by saying that only a revolution can help them." |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2009 : 16:07:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hittman
I paid for unemployment insurance out of every paycheck I received. |
It's a tax, and thus theft. You are currently benfitting from theft, and so helping to ensure that such theft will continue. After all, will the amount that you receive from unemployment "insurance" come anywhere close to the amount that you've already paid in? Would you be better or worse off if you had been able to keep that money and invest it yourself? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Hittman
Skeptic Friend
134 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2009 : 10:53:07 [Permalink]
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| I'm not sure where we disagree, except that you think it's huge in order to help the poor get rich. It's huge to help the poor get poorer and the rich get richer. |
I don't think that at all. It is huge to help the rich get richer, and to manipulate the poor into thinking they're being helped.
| It should be grants not loans. The dividend is hard working industrious educated citizenry that contribute to the society at large. No some banker. |
Student loans are one of the reason schools are so outrageously expensive. That, and the difficulty of getting accredited, which prevents the law of supply and demand from kicking in and more schools opening.
I didn't go to college right away. When I did, a few years after leaving high school, I found I didn't qualify for anything other than loans because I had been supporting myself. I got one TAP grant – for $40. Whoo hoo!
Sorry Dave, but because you don't believe its theft, you can't use that argument against me.
You should also learn a bit about how insurance works. (Or anything else, for that matter.)
I don't have a problem with people getting government benefits, including welfare and food stamps, as long as it's temporary. It shouldn't be a lifestyle. Not for people, not for corporations. |
When a vampire Jehovah's Witness knocks on your door, don't invite him in. Blood Witness: http://bloodwitness.com
Get Smartenized® with the Quick Hitts blog: http://www.davehitt.com/blog2/index.phpBlog |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2009 : 14:11:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hittman
Sorry Dave, but because you don't believe its theft, you can't use that argument against me. |
Sorry, Dave, but my beliefs are irrelevant to the argument I made, which is this: Because you believe taxation is theft, you're a hypocrite to have even applied for unemployment.| You should also learn a bit about how insurance works. |
You can try to make the argument about me, but everyone here can see that you're just trying to distract away from your own inconsistencies.| (Or anything else, for that matter.) |
Good one, coming from a guy who presents evidence that undermines his own arguments. Wow, you really stung me, there. Whooo-boy, am I chastened.| I don't have a problem with people getting government benefits, including welfare and food stamps, as long as it's temporary. It shouldn't be a lifestyle. Not for people, not for corporations. |
Irrelevant to the fact that you are benefitting from theft.
I suppose "temporary" theft is better than permanent theft, but that doesn't make it not theft.
Except, of course, that it is permanent theft if I never need the benefit. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2009 : 19:27:32 [Permalink]
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Anyone have any statistics on how long the average user of food stamps, ADC, medicaid, low income housing, etc use those services? I hear a lot of talk about abuse, entrapment, lifestyles, etc but I don't see many numbers to back that up.
My lame ass brother dug up a stat that said something like of the families on ADC today, the average has been on it 4.5 years. And whoever was doing the study predicted that they were likely to stay on an average of 13 yrs with no explanation of how they reached that number. This was his proof that most poeple who use welfare abuse it. But when you think about it, how long do you expect a single mom to be on ADC? If she has one child and doesn't manage to get a high paying job or to marry some dude, then she's going to be on the system for up to 18 years, right? And of everyone on the system right now, per that statistic, the average was less than 5 years? That seems pretty damn good to me.
I pointed that out to him and then asked him why his data source didn't show how many people used the system over a period of time and what the average stay for everyone was. Why just show the average time of the people on it right now? I'm sure that data's available somewhere, so why not show it? Then I suggested that maybe that number didn't look so bad, so they showed this other one instead. He got angry and wouldn't talk about it anymore.
If anyone's got a good honest source, I'd be intersted. Thanks. |
-Chaloobi
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Hittman
Skeptic Friend
134 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2009 : 13:05:46 [Permalink]
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| Sorry, Dave, but my beliefs are irrelevant to the argument I made, which is this: Because you believe taxation is theft, you're a hypocrite to have even applied for unemployment. |
It's amusing to see you desperately spew something so obviously stupid. Unemployment is insurance, which I've paid for out of every paycheck I've ever earned.
I have stated, very clearly, that taking something by force is theft, something most people here disagree with when it comes to taxes, which is the height of cognitive dissonance. Somehow, if the men holding guns are wearing pretty blue uniforms it magically ceases to be theft.
I have also stated some taxes are necessary. Since they are theft, then we should keep them as small as possible.
As for government benefits, there is nothing even slightly immoral about getting back a small percentage of what you've paid in. There's nothing wrong with stealing something back from the thief who robbed you.
| Anyone have any statistics on how long the average user of food stamps, ADC, medicaid, low income housing, etc use those services? I hear a lot of talk about abuse, entrapment, lifestyles, etc but I don't see many numbers to back that up. |
Last I checked, which was a while ago, the time for welfare and food stamps was about a year and a half. (I don't know about housing or Medicaid.) Something like 15% stayed on them more than three years. Which means most people using them are using them as intended – as a temporary safety net. Some people do use them as lifetime hammocks, but not as many as is commonly believed.. It's a small percentage, but it's still a lot of people.
OTOH, corporate welfare, which costs considerably more, goes on forever.
Looks like GM lost nine billion dollars last quarter. Hey, that was a good investment of taxpayer dollars, wasn't it?
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When a vampire Jehovah's Witness knocks on your door, don't invite him in. Blood Witness: http://bloodwitness.com
Get Smartenized® with the Quick Hitts blog: http://www.davehitt.com/blog2/index.phpBlog |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2009 : 13:28:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hittman
| Anyone have any statistics on how long the average user of food stamps, ADC, medicaid, low income housing, etc use those services? I hear a lot of talk about abuse, entrapment, lifestyles, etc but I don't see many numbers to back that up. |
Last I checked, which was a while ago, the time for welfare and food stamps was about a year and a half. (I don't know about housing or Medicaid.) Something like 15% stayed on them more than three years. Which means most people using them are using them as intended – as a temporary safety net. Some people do use them as lifetime hammocks, but not as many as is commonly believed.. It's a small percentage, but it's still a lot of people.
OTOH, corporate welfare, which costs considerably more, goes on forever. |
I'm interested in links.
Looks like GM lost nine billion dollars last quarter. Hey, that was a good investment of taxpayer dollars, wasn't it?
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Well, considering anywhere from one to three million additional people would be unemployed or in the process of losing their jobs right now if the government hadn't loaned GM and Chrysler that money, yeah I think it was a pretty damn good investment. Consider also that tier 1 and 2 suppliers by the hundreds would be toppling like dominos right now and taking down Ford and shutting down the transplants too. And who the hell knows what other businesses out there depend on the auto companies and their suppliers - service industries, material suppliers, basically whatever all those auto-related workers spend money on. I wonder what the sudden implosion of so many companies would do for the recession? Yeah, I think it was a good investment.  |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 03/02/2009 13:29:34 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2009 : 19:41:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hittman
Originally posted by Hittman
And here is another view of the lost decade that probably lines up more with your way of thinking. |
It does. I could find a dozen articles that come up with the similar explanations, and someone else could find an equal number that say the exact opposite. So quoting experts (appeal to authority) isn't going to work for either side of this debate. Instead, let's rely on a bit of common sense.
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Common sense based on ignorance of economics would likely result in a debate of uninformed opinions. I'm no economist, relying on the analysis of experts in more than reasonable. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2009 : 19:59:46 [Permalink]
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Hittman:
I have stated, very clearly, that taking something by force is theft.. |
Your ex employer was forced to kick down. That is why some employers fight individual claims.
You don't think you actually pay for the whole thing do you? Maybe you need to learn how unemployment insurance works.
Talk about cognitive dissonance... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2009 : 20:55:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hittman
It's amusing to see you desperately spew something so obviously stupid. Unemployment is insurance, which I've paid for out of every paycheck I've ever earned. |
So all the other social benefits programs you've paid for out of every paycheck, we can just rename them as "insurances" and you'll be cool with them? I don't think I'm the stupid one here. Virginia, for example, funds unemployment insurance by collecting "UI taxes."| I have stated, very clearly, that taking something by force is theft... |
And UI taxes are collected via robbery of employers. They cannot opt out.| ...something most people here disagree with when it comes to taxes, which is the height of cognitive dissonance. |
Only if you ignore the social contract, which you do, making you look foolish.| Somehow, if the men holding guns are wearing pretty blue uniforms it magically ceases to be theft. |
More implied lies from the Hittman. Who would have thunk it?| I have also stated some taxes are necessary. Since they are theft, then we should keep them as small as possible. |
So why agree to UI taxes? Are they "as small as possible?"| As for government benefits, there is nothing even slightly immoral about getting back a small percentage of what you've paid in. There's nothing wrong with stealing something back from the thief who robbed you. |
So then you're in favor of Welfare Queens and governmental embezzlement?
Unfortunately, nothing in your reply addresses your hypocrisy. The fact is that the states partly base their collection of UI taxes on how much they had to pay out in previous years, in order to keep the funds solvent. By collecting UI, you, Hittman, are helping to ensure that next year, the UI tax rate in your state will be higher, thus perpetuating and deepening the theft of money from employers of people who won't ever collect. You, Hittman, are helping to increase the governmental theft from other people. This is not an example of you taking back money you paid in, it's an example of your freely made decision directly causing harm (theft by force) to the rest of the citizens and companies in your state. Harm of which you appear to be delightedly and arrogantly ignorant, in a brilliant reversal of enlightened self-interest. Hittman, you are an example of why libertarian ideals will not function in the real world: because enough people will mistake a tax for insurance because of its name, and defend their delusion to the point of ridiculousness, that confusion will reign instead of fully informed citizens. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Hittman
Skeptic Friend
134 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2009 : 15:28:22 [Permalink]
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| Well, considering anywhere from one to three million additional people would be unemployed or in the process of losing their jobs right now if the government hadn't loaned GM and Chrysler that money, yeah I think it was a pretty damn good investment. Consider also that tier 1 and 2 suppliers by the hundreds would be toppling like dominos right now and taking down Ford and shutting down the transplants too. And who the hell knows what other businesses out there depend on the auto companies and their suppliers - service industries, material suppliers, basically whatever all those auto-related workers spend money on. I wonder what the sudden implosion of so many companies would do for the recession? Yeah, I think it was a good investment. |
So where does it end? Is there any bottom to it? Or do we just keep "lending" them money, over and over and over again, while they presume the same losing business model?
Here's a suggestion: The next loan comes with mandatory layoffs – for all the executives. They have to be replaced with executives from similar business who have shown they can run the company at a profit – like Honda and Toyota. That would increase the likelihood of the handouts ending eventually.
| Common sense based on ignorance of economics would likely result in a debate of uninformed opinions. I'm no economist, relying on the analysis of experts in more than reasonable. |
So you pick your experts and I'll pick mine and we'll get nowhere.
| Only if you ignore the social contract |
I love this argument. Can you please show me the social contract, and show me my signature on it?
| So then you're in favor of Welfare Queens and governmental embezzlement? |
Are you really that pathetic? I guess you are. It's amusing and sad at the same time.
I specifically said there's nothing wrong with getting back what you've paid in. Perhaps you should take a class on reading comprehension. I bet there are some classes available near you.
I don't care if you call it insurance or tax or a fee. I had to pay it, and so I'm perfectly justified in collecting the benefit. If I could have opted out of it, did opt out, and then demanded to collect the benefit, that would be hypocritical. But since I'm forced to pay it there's no guilt or hypocrisy in getting back some of what I paid in.
Be sure you show me that social contract. I'd like to read it. Unless you're referring to some magical concept that doesn't exist. You do consider yourself a skeptic, right?
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When a vampire Jehovah's Witness knocks on your door, don't invite him in. Blood Witness: http://bloodwitness.com
Get Smartenized® with the Quick Hitts blog: http://www.davehitt.com/blog2/index.phpBlog |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2009 : 15:47:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hittman
I love this argument. Can you please show me the social contract, and show me my signature on it? |
Just look at your latest tax return and/or voter registration application.| So then you're in favor of Welfare Queens and governmental embezzlement? |
Are you really that pathetic? I guess you are. It's amusing and sad at the same time.
I specifically said there's nothing wrong with getting back what you've paid in. Perhaps you should take a class on reading comprehension. I bet there are some classes available near you. |
So if I were able to embezzle from the government exactly as much as I've paid in taxes, would you be okay with that?| I don't care if you call it insurance or tax or a fee. |
Baloney, you made it quite clear that what it's called mattered very much to you.| I had to pay it, and so I'm perfectly justified in collecting the benefit. |
Even if your collection of it will negatively impact others? Apparently, in this case, you feel that your right to swing your fist does not end at anyone else's nose.| If I could have opted out of it, did opt out, and then demanded to collect the benefit, that would be hypocritical. But since I'm forced to pay it there's no guilt or hypocrisy in getting back some of what I paid in. |
You keep telling yourself that it's only about you, and perhaps you'll continue to feel justified in your decision. But your justification relies upon your ignorance of how unemployment actually works.| Be sure you show me that social contract. I'd like to read it. Unless you're referring to some magical concept that doesn't exist. You do consider yourself a skeptic, right? |
Hey, it's written up in the same way as the law of universal gravitation or the laws of thermodynamics. It's written in the same place as the names of three people who have died from second-hand smoke. It's written in the same place as the name of a single bank which has been forced to write a bad loan.
Hittman, your smug defense here is no defense at all. It's just another in a long list of distractions away from your failures to argue in a rational way, and your failures to be consistent in your political ideals. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Why do Republicans hate the poor?
