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dglas
Skeptic Friend
Canada
397 Posts |
 Posted - 03/01/2009 : 18:51:53
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Since I echoed a post from here to somewhere else, why not return the favour...? ;)
The unfortunate thing, in my view, with the Atheist Bus Ad is that it primarily appeals to self-interest. This will be immediately recognized by anyone reading it and makes atheism come across as an ethic of personal convenience.
Feeding the cognitive dissonance thing to critical mass is the way to go, in my view. I suspect that most deconversion stores arise from conflicting values and that most people do not share the values prescribed in the dogma.
Let's strike right at the heart of the illness:
What do you think? Too dark? Low impact? High impact? Too subtle?
ETA: I have had it suggested that a better font could be used.
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- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
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The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
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Edited by - dglas on 03/01/2009 18:53:35
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2009 : 19:05:35 [Permalink]
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Interesting, but probably not very efficient.
First of all, it will probably be view at terribly negative and would probably not be allowed.
Even then, indeed, cognitive dissonance. People are very good at making up excuses. After all, it was just a test and Abraham never did actually sacrifice his son.
Also, everybody knows that Jesus, despite saying otherwise, rendered the most unpleasant and inconvenient parts of the Old Testament obsolete. Except the part about the gays, of course, never let good ol' fashioned bigotry go to waste. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2009 : 20:54:45 [Permalink]
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Isaac talks in Genesis 22, so he needs to be older, but still cute as all get out. Might pick a photo of a little blonde boy, about 4 yrs old, just for best visual impact.
Also, need to add "Genesis" before "22:10". You know, for those people who don't actually read the Bible, just have it spoon fed to them. |
I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2009 : 02:17:49 [Permalink]
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I've been browsing stuff, mainly in Wiki, about the "Documentary Hypothesis" of the Old Testament. The gist of it is that many scholars now feel the OT came from many sources, which were later edited together at several points in time.
The DH helps one to understand why, necessarily, there are so many contradictions in the OT. Rather than consistency, inclusion of the myths of all the tribes was often the goal. Somewhere in my readings on the subject of Abraham and Issac (sorry, can't find it right now), I ran into a mention that the original text likely had no intervening angel, but rather a completed sacrifice. If that were the original version, that puts the Abraham and Isaac tale into an even darker perspective.
And Isaac was likely to have been 25 to 37 years old at the time of the (aborted?) sacrifice.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 03/02/2009 02:21:27 |
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dglas
Skeptic Friend
Canada
397 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2009 : 02:50:28 [Permalink]
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Whether the sacrifice was prevented or not is irrelevant. Whether God intended the sacrifice to be committed is irrelevant. What matters is Abraham's (qua Everyman's) intent to commit the sacrifice. Abraham, (and us by proxy) with the deliberation to conduct the sacrifice, had already surrendered his humanity. Also, the age of Isaac is irrelevant as well. This is not a story about one man and his son; this has far greater import than that. This is a story about subjugating one's humanity to a philosophy.
And, unfortunately, Jesus could not have rationalized this one away, since the New Testament also requires the subservience and sacrifice of humanity to the dogma. This idea is necessary to any concept of divine worship. This is critical to the very justification for religious worship itself. The "new covenant" cannot remove this aspect without decimating worship itself.
I do agree that adding the Genesis before the chapter and verse is necessary. |
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- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
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The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2009 : 03:32:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by dglas
Whether the sacrifice was prevented or not is irrelevant. Whether God intended the sacrifice to be committed is irrelevant. What matters is Abraham's (qua Everyman's) intent to commit the sacrifice. Abraham, (and us by proxy) with the deliberation to conduct the sacrifice, had already surrendered his humanity. Also, the age of Isaac is irrelevant as well. This is not a story about one man and his son; this has far greater import than that. This is a story about subjugating one's humanity to a philosophy.
And, unfortunately, Jesus could not have rationalized this one away, since the New Testament also requires the subservience and sacrifice of humanity to the dogma. This idea is necessary to any concept of divine worship. This is critical to the very justification for religious worship itself. The "new covenant" cannot remove this aspect without decimating worship itself.
I do agree that adding the Genesis before the chapter and verse is necessary. |
Completely agreed. Still, a young, cute Isaac would work better on a T-shirt.
The Abraham-Isaac tale is all about convincing people to completely surrender their better ethics and instincts to the kings and priests of an unseen deity. Except, in Abraham's case (if there is any nub of truth to the myth) old Abe actually "saw" and spoke with his god. With a psychosis that strong, Abraham would have had no option of disbelief.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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dglas
Skeptic Friend
Canada
397 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2009 : 13:36:21 [Permalink]
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| I'm not sure that would work well on a t-shirt anyway. I had my artist friend try to make the shadow of the hand and knife more noticeable, but I think that would be lost on the dubious lighting of a t-shirt. |
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- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
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The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2009 : 20:02:34 [Permalink]
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| Whats the purpose of your proposed sign? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2009 : 20:46:15 [Permalink]
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If Isaac was in his 20's or 30's, the analogy w/ Jesus becomes (of course) stronger. As does the image of God as a bloodthirsty filicidal maniac.
This picture, "The Sacrifice of Isaac" by some dude named Rembrandt, would work on a T-shirt (barring any hurdles with copyright or whatever):
Besides planning on killing him, it's kind of harsh how Abraham has his hand mashed over Isaac's face in this painting. But it probably made the painting easier for Rembrandt. (Look at how far out to the side Isaac's nipples are - odd.)
Also, seeing the angel in this painting made me look back at the story. Sure enough, God tells Abraham to sacrifice Isaac in Genesis 22:1-2, but it's the angel who calls Abraham off in Genesis 22:11-12.
Now, if you were Abraham, wouldn't you want to hear this directly from God, to make sure you were really supposed to stop & sacrifice the ram instead? You know, head boss gives an order; you're damn well going to carry it out unless you hear otherwise directly from him, preferably in burning bush form.
*Sheesh* what a lame story.
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I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2009 : 00:17:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Zebra
(Look at how far out to the side Isaac's nipples are - odd.) |
There are probably some verses missing which describe Abraham first stunning Isaac into submission with a couple of divinely inspired purple nurples. I mean, look at the painting! His legs aren't bound or anything, so if he weren't already in extraordinary pain or passed out, he could have fought his way free. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2009 : 01:05:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Zebra
If Isaac was in his 20's or 30's, the analogy w/ Jesus becomes (of course) stronger. As does the image of God as a bloodthirsty filicidal maniac.
This picture, "The Sacrifice of Isaac" by some dude named Rembrandt, would work on a T-shirt (barring any hurdles with copyright or whatever):
Besides planning on killing him, it's kind of harsh how Abraham has his hand mashed over Isaac's face in this painting. But it probably made the painting easier for Rembrandt. (Look at how far out to the side Isaac's nipples are - odd.)
Also, seeing the angel in this painting made me look back at the story. Sure enough, God tells Abraham to sacrifice Isaac in Genesis 22:1-2, but it's the angel who calls Abraham off in Genesis 22:11-12.
Now, if you were Abraham, wouldn't you want to hear this directly from God, to make sure you were really supposed to stop & sacrifice the ram instead? You know, head boss gives an order; you're damn well going to carry it out unless you hear otherwise directly from him, preferably in burning bush form.
*Sheesh* what a lame story.
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That Rembrandt painting worries me. That knife falling unnoticed from Abraham's hand towards Isaac's family jewels looks like it's going to cut off the the entire Hebrew people at the root.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2009 : 01:27:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
That Rembrandt painting worries me. That knife falling unnoticed from Abraham's hand towards Isaac's family jewels looks like it's going to cut off the the entire Hebrew people at the root. |
How do you think the Jewish practice of circumcision got started? 
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 03/07/2009 01:27:24 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2009 : 02:13:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by HalfMooner
That Rembrandt painting worries me. That knife falling unnoticed from Abraham's hand towards Isaac's family jewels looks like it's going to cut off the the entire Hebrew people at the root. |
How do you think the Jewish practice of circumcision got started?
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Makes sense. They couldn't say the angel had an accident, so to cover up, they made up a painful and useless ritual to use for thousands of years.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2009 : 10:05:43 [Permalink]
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| Oh, it makes so much sense now... Maybe this cover-up will be the subject of 'the Da Vinci Code II'. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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dglas
Skeptic Friend
Canada
397 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2009 : 12:14:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Whats the purpose of your proposed sign?
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I thought the OP was pretty clear. |
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- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
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The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2009 : 14:47:11 [Permalink]
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I thought the OP was clear, too.
Pointless points: In the Rembrandt painting, Abraham is wearing the knife's sheath on his right hip. Wouldn't that make him left-handed? Not to mention that the knife & sheath seem too advanced for ~1850 BCE... |
I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
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Cognitive dissonance
