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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 04/23/2009 : 11:24:37 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
He'd be surprised to hear that. |
And if he did not say it than I am going to be upset with Filthy for starting off the thread by quoting PZ as saying it.
| Because "the infinite" has zero value for anyone. |
You do not know this. |
If Heaven is perfect and Hell is eternal torture, |
Eternal torment.
| then yes, I know that. Risk is intolerable in the former and reward impossible in the latter. |
You don't know that reward is imposable in the latter and I am saying, in the case of the saved, that the latter is the reward. What value you assign to the latter for the saved and the unsaved is irrelevant.
| Therefore, there will be no striving for goals in either place, |
Again, you do not know this.
| and that challenge is what gives actions (and their results) value. |
The latter, for the saved, is the sum of all value multiplied by infinity.
| But the value of the two destinations is the same: none. |
You do not know this either. |
Yes, yes I do. |
No, no you do not.
| I have many many flaws. I am after all human. Halfmooner was willing to acknowledge a flaw of his. The man whom feels good about himself and puffs himself up with pride when he exists in such a flawed state is the one who has really fooled himself and is blinded to the reality of his own condition. |
You say that only to justify your lack of self esteem, |
More opinion.
| to make it appear to be a virtue, when in reality you're just a doormat, desperately waiting for the One True Foot to come down and scrape its mud off onto you. |
You really don't know me at all.
| There's a big difference, Bill, between accepting yourself (and thus not needing the approval of anyone, much less a Divine Bully) and being prideful. |
I have accepted myself. The pride comes in when one has fully accepted himself as flawed. but yet somehow thinks he is still all of the that anyway. Kind of like the way you act most of the time.
| That you equate the two supports my hypothesis about you. Any flaw, for you, is obviously too large for you to cope with, and so you think yourself unworthy of anything. So what the hell does God want with a piece of trash like you? |
And that is the beauty of the Gospel that you fail to grasp. Your right, on my own merit I deserve death. Next to God I am not even worth to be compared to trash. Yet despite what I deserve God offers me life anyways, which he payed for. I have been given undeserved grace. The great mystery. We disobey God, we live for ourselves, we deny him in many ways, we give him every reason in the world to compltely forsake us, yet he loves us anyway. Jesus helps us understand this unconditional love the Father has for us in the parable of the prodical son.
| But that's just your opinion, that I hid my agenda from myself. Maybe I didn't? |
That's opinion. |
Well until they perfect the mind reading machine your just going to have to accept that that was my agenda. If this is an opinion in your world then so be it.
| I see. How about, "I don't care, at all."? |
What do I care? |
Then why did you even bring it up to begin with? |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2009 : 11:41:09 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by filthy |
Example 2:
It is the opinion of certain people that due to his tragic disability, Stephen Hawking is a worthless human being. |
I hope this was not aimed at me because you know I never said any such thing! As one who was created in the image of God Hawking's worth as a human being is infinite.
Just because I reject most of his world view and do not place him at the top of the list on the All Century list for minds does not mean that I hate the man or have given him a worthless status, despite whatever your skeptically stubborn mind forces you to believe. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2009 : 11:49:01 [Permalink]
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This was already covered on page 1. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/23/2009 : 11:56:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by filthy |
Example 2:
It is the opinion of certain people that due to his tragic disability, Stephen Hawking is a worthless human being. |
I hope this was not aimed at me because you know I never said any such thing! As one who was created in the image of God Hawking's worth as a human being is infinite.
Just because I reject most of his world view and do not place him at the top of the list on the All Century list for minds does not mean that I hate the man or have given him a worthless status, despite whatever your skeptically stubborn mind forces you to believe.
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Ah, the question is cleared up, then; God is confined to a wheelchair and drools all over himself.
Thank you!
Actually, it was aimed at anyone who thinks a cripple is no more than that. I disremember book, chapter and verse, but it is written to the effect that no one physically imperfect can come into the presence of God. I am a crippe and don't much want to associate with any such degenerate spirit.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 04/23/2009 11:59:25 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2009 : 12:00:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
And if he did not say it than I am going to be upset with Filthy for starting off the thread by quoting PZ as saying it. |
The value you assign to PZ's statement is not the same value as he assigns to it.| If Heaven is perfect and Hell is eternal torture, |
Eternal torment. |
Picky, picky.| then yes, I know that. Risk is intolerable in the former and reward impossible in the latter. |
You don't know that reward is imposable in the latter and I am saying... |
If it is possible to receive rewards in Hell, then it isn't "eternal torment," now is it?| ...in the case of the saved, that the latter is the reward. |
Hell is the reward for the saved? What?| What value you assign to the latter for the saved and the unsaved is irrelevant. |
And so it is for you, as well, if God exists.| Therefore, there will be no striving for goals in either place, |
Again, you do not know this. |
How could there be, Bill?| The latter, for the saved, is the sum of all value multiplied by infinity. |
Wild speculation.You've made no substantive counterargument, other than saying, in effect, "nuh-uh."Do you have something better? Didn't think so.| And that is the beauty of the Gospel that you fail to grasp. Your right, on my own merit I deserve death. Next to God I am not even worth to be compared to trash. Yet despite what I deserve God offers me life anyways, which he payed for. |
No, He didn't. As soon as He resurrected Himself, it was all a cosmic mulligan.| I have been given undeserved grace. |
No, see, you should deserve something. You've got beaten-wife syndrome.| The great mystery. We disobey God, we live for ourselves, we deny him in many ways, we give him every reason in the world to compltely forsake us, yet he loves us anyway. |
His love is conditional and childish.| Jesus helps us understand this unconditional love the Father has for us in the parable of the prodical son. |
If His love were unconditional, there would be no throwing of people into a lake of fire.| Well until they perfect the mind reading machine your just going to have to accept that that was my agenda. If this is an opinion in your world then so be it. |
Way to miss the point.| Then why did you even bring it up to begin with? |
'Cause it was funny seeing you say the opposite of what you meant. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2009 : 13:31:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by filthy |
Example 2:
It is the opinion of certain people that due to his tragic disability, Stephen Hawking is a worthless human being. |
I hope this was not aimed at me because you know I never said any such thing! As one who was created in the image of God Hawking's worth as a human being is infinite.
Just because I reject most of his world view and do not place him at the top of the list on the All Century list for minds does not mean that I hate the man or have given him a worthless status, despite whatever your skeptically stubborn mind forces you to believe.
|
Ah, the question is cleared up, then; God is confined to a wheelchair and drools all over himself.
Thank you!
Actually, it was aimed at anyone who thinks a cripple is no more than that. I disremember book, chapter and verse, but it is written to the effect that no one physically imperfect can come into the presence of God. I am a crippe and don't much want to associate with any such degenerate spirit.
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| Ah, the question is cleared up, then; God is confined to a wheelchair and drools all over himself. |
Created in the image of God does not make one God as first of all God is not created.
| Actually, it was aimed at anyone who thinks a cripple is no more than that. I disremember book, chapter and verse, but it is written to the effect that no one physically imperfect can come into the presence of God. I am a crippe and don't much want to associate with any such degenerate spirit. |
That's the beauty of the gospel, ALL is forgiven at the foot of the cross.
There was once a small boy who was observing his father's priceless Ming vase when he accidentally dropped some pennies inside. Reaching his hand down to grab the lost coins he quickly realized that when he tried to pull his clinched fist out of the vase it was too big and would not come out. Not wanting to lose his pennies the boy panicked and smashed the vase so he could get his coins back.
Many times we humans live our lives in much the same way. We get fixated on our condition and chances for recovery here in the finite picture and complete miss the infinite picture that lies ahead. We would unknowingly smash a priceless vase just so we can recover a few pennies now.
Hawking, his condition, and whether he recovers or not, is just pennies in a finite existence compared to the priceless Ming vase that awaits him in eternity were his sins forgiven and covered by the blood of the Lamb.
Why fixate on the finite when the infinite is at hand?
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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dglas
Skeptic Friend
Canada
397 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2009 : 13:52:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
This was already covered on page 1.
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Shush! Grown-ups talking. |
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- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
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The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2009 : 13:56:54 [Permalink]
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Obviously, you fail to even consider in your dismissal of opinions that you notion of Hell and Heaven and God's existence is nothing but opinion.
Opinions contradicted by facts and our understanding of the universe, at that.
Whatever. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2009 : 13:56:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
...the priceless Ming vase that awaits him in eternity were his sins forgiven and covered by the blood of the Lamb.
Why fixate on the finite when the infinite is at hand? |
Because just because you wish really, really hard doesn't make it true. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2009 : 13:58:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
This was already covered on page 1.
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Indeed. Bill threw out the bait back on page one.
Other than mentioning it once in a while, over Bill's denials, there's not much more I'm willing to do about it.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2009 : 15:54:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by filthy |
Example 2:
It is the opinion of certain people that due to his tragic disability, Stephen Hawking is a worthless human being. |
I hope this was not aimed at me because you know I never said any such thing! As one who was created in the image of God Hawking's worth as a human being is infinite.
Just because I reject most of his world view and do not place him at the top of the list on the All Century list for minds does not mean that I hate the man or have given him a worthless status, despite whatever your skeptically stubborn mind forces you to believe.
|
Ah, the question is cleared up, then; God is confined to a wheelchair and drools all over himself.
Thank you!
Actually, it was aimed at anyone who thinks a cripple is no more than that. I disremember book, chapter and verse, but it is written to the effect that no one physically imperfect can come into the presence of God. I am a crippe and don't much want to associate with any such degenerate spirit.
|
| Ah, the question is cleared up, then; God is confined to a wheelchair and drools all over himself. |
Created in the image of God does not make one God as first of all God is not created.
| Actually, it was aimed at anyone who thinks a cripple is no more than that. I disremember book, chapter and verse, but it is written to the effect that no one physically imperfect can come into the presence of God. I am a crippe and don't much want to associate with any such degenerate spirit. |
That's the beauty of the gospel, ALL is forgiven at the foot of the cross.
There was once a small boy who was observing his father's priceless Ming vase when he accidentally dropped some pennies inside. Reaching his hand down to grab the lost coins he quickly realized that when he tried to pull his clinched fist out of the vase it was too big and would not come out. Not wanting to lose his pennies the boy panicked and smashed the vase so he could get his coins back.
Many times we humans live our lives in much the same way. We get fixated on our condition and chances for recovery here in the finite picture and complete miss the infinite picture that lies ahead. We would unknowingly smash a priceless vase just so we can recover a few pennies now.
Hawking, his condition, and whether he recovers or not, is just pennies in a finite existence compared to the priceless Ming vase that awaits him in eternity were his sins forgiven and covered by the blood of the Lamb.
Why fixate on the finite when the infinite is at hand?
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Or is it that "God" is made in it's creator's image, eh?
Like Hawking, make the best you can of the finite because you will never see the infinite. You only go around once.
But that's just an opinion........ 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 04/23/2009 15:56:44 |
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Stephen Hawking ill, hospitalized
