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TG
Skeptic Friend
USA
121 Posts |
 Posted - 08/04/2009 : 07:33:38 [Permalink]
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OFFC:| I am praying for him and his family. |
Which will be just as effective as the prayers for his now deceased daughter. |
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dglas
Skeptic Friend
Canada
397 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2009 : 08:10:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
I don't understand why the parents or their supporters care about what they are charged with by secular entities. Even if they are terminated, they get their higher reward, right? And their daughter is in heaven now, right? (which begs the question, why did they call an ambulance?) So, they spend a few years in a prison before they go to heaven - big deal!
At least, that would be how I would look at it if I were a True Believer.
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I actually did a talk for our local freethinkers group on this topic. Perhaps I should reproduce it here. Those who are my Facebook friends will find it posted in my Facebook notes.
Neither Dale Nuemann nor Leilani Neumann called an ambulance. A relative in another part of the country called the police. Dale Neumann did claim to have attempted CPR, so his faith failed at the end. He was a former police officer and could not have not known about medical services. His decision to refuse his daughter medical care was quite deliberate.
Leilani Neumann tried the "I don't care what you all think; it's just me and God" shtick. In a statement issued a day after her conviction of 2nd degree reckless homicide, Leilani said a very great number of excrutiatingly grotesque things. She saw Kara's illness as a test of her, Leilani's, faith. It was a test Kara would fail. Funny kind of thing to do, issuing a statement to people who's opinions matter not at all to her.
Leilani and the Unleavened Bread Ministries are trying to make this all into a Parents' Rights issue. Yes, they are just that warped. One has to wonder at what point a Parent's Rights supercedes a child's right to live. Why do groups like the Unleavened Bread Ministries see a necessary contradiction in the rights of a child and a parent's rights? Well, that is an explicit function of the religion. That is what the Binding of Isaac is all about.
Some religious people are now trying to distance themselves from the Neumann's, even within the Unleavened Bread Ministries, seeking to hold the religion harmless by marginalizing the Neumanns. Standard fare. Of course, the Neumanns actions are actually perfectly consistent with the teachings of the dogma.
While both Dale and Leilani Neumann have been convicted of second degree reckless homicide, they are not due for sentencing until the 6th of October. Meanwhile, in Oregon, Ava Worthington's life has been priced at 60 days in jail and two years probation. It seems unlikely Dale or Leilani Neumann will receive anything like a real sentence.
The world turns, and twisted and warped people continue to do twisted and warped things in the name of a twisted and warped dogma. And twisted and warped people influenced by the same twisted and warped dogma continue to justify, justify, justify...
...meanwhile children are dying. This is what happens when a mere dogma is given priority over human lives. |
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- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
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The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2009 : 08:19:12 [Permalink]
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| He asked you first, you explain first. |
Well he did ask first but he also just gave a list of entities which do not exist with no justification, then had the audacity to ask me for evidence when I disagreed with no justification. I find it rather tedious having to point out the hypocrisy around here. Especially around people who have such a high opinion of their own intellect, it should be obvious. |
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| Edited by - On fire for Christ on 08/04/2009 08:24:22 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2009 : 08:52:32 [Permalink]
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Yeah, well, you would probably post the same list, minus Ywh, with the same absence of justification.
But, I agree, it was a bit of a pointless and unnecessary inflammatory post.
Now, let's go back to the original topic.
Were you serious in your initial upset or just sarcastic? Sometime, it's hard to tell on the internet.
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2009 : 09:38:50 [Permalink]
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| I thought I would point out that God does not exist, and so it's pointless to pray to him. But yes, let's go back to the topic here. I personally don't think you were sarcastic, am I right? |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2009 : 09:51:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by dglas
Leilani and the Unleavened Bread Ministries are trying to make this all into a Parents' Rights issue. Yes, they are just that warped. One has to wonder at what point a Parent's Rights supercedes a child's right to live. Why do groups like the Unleavened Bread Ministries see a necessary contradiction in the rights of a child and a parent's rights? Well, that is an explicit function of the religion. That is what the Binding of Isaac is all about. |
The children's rights comes before the parents' rights. They need to be informed that their beliefs might just be completely false and not connected to reality very much. That way they can play pretend in their private time, and not actually believe that the fantasy world is real. Then when they are done playing they return to the real world, sort of like when we log out from WoW. It's fun, but we know it's not for real. Same should go for the believers, they need to stop believing in it. It's silly at best and dangerous at worst. |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2009 : 14:15:41 [Permalink]
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Honestly, this religious bullshit is insane. Two years ago we have Terri Schiavo down here in FL with all the batshit insane religious morons coming out of the closet for the "culture of life" crap.
Now we have religious morons who support a parent's "right" to let their children die an agonizing, torturous, and unnecessary death.
Is it too much to want a little consitency out of these people?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2009 : 14:22:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Honestly, this religious bullshit is insane. Two years ago we have Terri Schiavo down here in FL with all the batshit insane religious morons coming out of the closet for the "culture of life" crap.
Now we have religious morons who support a parent's "right" to let their children die an agonizing, torturous, and unnecessary death.
Is it too much to want a little consitency out of these people?
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D'oh! I hadn't even thought of it that way, but that's a devastating point.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2009 : 19:42:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
I am praying for him and his family.
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You still refuse to see what is obvious to most here. Your praying for "for him and his family" will help them as much as his prayers helped his daughter. Which is, not one bit. However I don't believe that even this unfortunate girls death will open your eyes to the lies you've been feed and accept, most likely since early childhood. That kind of brainwashing is not easy to undo. My parents and the catholic church started brainwashing me before I was one year old. It was obvious that what I was told didn't make sense, lies never can, under cross examination. It was easy to see examples where religious leaders don't practice what they preach, while preaching that others do. All religions are no different. Do you really know what it takes to be religious, that you lie, lie with your heart and soul, however lying in the name of GOD is still lying. Stop believing the lies and stop lying to yourself that the lies ring true. You know they don't, your not that stupid. You can break the effects of a life of being programed, manipulated to accept lies that can never hold water. If your true to yourself. Sadly many people can't live with out lying to themselves and others they love, daily. If you can't your not alone. SS
To get a better understanding why praying is useless, this might help,,, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaZDcS-rMf4 . SS |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2009 : 22:06:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Honestly, this religious bullshit is insane. Two years ago we have Terri Schiavo down here in FL with all the batshit insane religious morons coming out of the closet for the "culture of life" crap.
Now we have religious morons who support a parent's "right" to let their children die an agonizing, torturous, and unnecessary death.
Is it too much to want a little consitency out of these people? |
It's crazy and stupid, and that's that. Wasn't Terri Schiavo braindead since many years, anyway?
But yeah, we will get no consistency here. They call it "culture of life" and they are "pro-life". Most of them have little problem with war and death penalty, but they do have a real problem with welfare safety nets and universal healthcare. Some culture of life. |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 00:39:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Maverick
Originally posted by Dude
Honestly, this religious bullshit is insane. Two years ago we have Terri Schiavo down here in FL with all the batshit insane religious morons coming out of the closet for the "culture of life" crap.
Now we have religious morons who support a parent's "right" to let their children die an agonizing, torturous, and unnecessary death.
Is it too much to want a little consitency out of these people? |
It's crazy and stupid, and that's that. Wasn't Terri Schiavo braindead since many years, anyway?
But yeah, we will get no consistency here. They call it "culture of life" and they are "pro-life". Most of them have little problem with war and death penalty, but they do have a real problem with welfare safety nets and universal healthcare. Some culture of life.
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If memory serves, Schiavo vegetated for some 15 years before she was finally and mercifully let go. That scumbag, Randall Terry, was heavily involved in it and it spring-boarded him back into some national prominence after a long period of near-anyononity. In short, most of that was political bullshit from people who didn't give a rat's ass about her or her sadly divided family.
As I recall, we had a fairly heated thread on it.
On fire, your prayers might help you and your friends feel better about the whole thing, but will change nothing. The hard and irrevocable fact of the matter is that for all practical purposes, these people deliberately murdered their daughter. True, it was through ignorance and neglect rather than with an axe, but it was murder nevertheless and amounted to the same thing. It causes me to wonder if they loved their daughter as much as claimed.
I find it disgusting to love a failed belief system over and above one's family. But, as noted previously by dglas, they're probably going to walk all but scott free, and the claim, faulty as it would be, could then be made that the power of prayer caused the judge to lose his mind and be lenient. Utter crap, of course, but if I were a gambling man, I'd bet on it. The current odds favor it.
Is God really vicious enough to love the murders of a child over the child herself? A reading of the OT shows that he certainly is and the world is fortunate indeed that such a creature does not exist.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 09:35:28 [Permalink]
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| Just because you don't LIKE something doesn't mean it's false. Religion is not a buffet Filthy! |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 09:50:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Just because you don't LIKE something doesn't mean it's false. Religion is not a buffet Filthy!
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From my perspective religion is certainly a buffet and the contents of that buffet are more dependent on where it is located than it has to do with Truth. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 10:08:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Just because you don't LIKE something doesn't mean it's false. Religion is not a buffet Filthy!
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You are correct, it is not. It is a delusion sold by pious snake-oil peddlers, themselves mostly deluded, that have for too long led their flocks by the most insidious nose-rings of all; the human love of ceremony and mysterious incantations. Thus it has been throughout history.
At a buffet at least, you can get a sandwich.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 10:22:38 [Permalink]
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| Strange there isnt a Christian in the world who doesnt treat the Bible like a buffet. Every sect picks and chooses verses, else parents would be slaughtering their children for the slightest offence, women would be married to their rapists and all the cute little barnyard animals would be slaughtered in homes daily...among many other ignored absurdities. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 08/05/2009 10:23:08 |
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Wow, this is outrageous
