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Jayhawker Soule
New Member
21 Posts |
 Posted - 12/09/2009 : 04:21:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
Furthermore, the proposition: the majority of X are N,
therefore X is characteristic of N |
is a pretty pathetic fallacy.
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I missed that one.
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Why am I not surprised?
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Please name the fallacy so I can google it properly.
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Cum hoc ergo propter hoc
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Thanks.
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You're welcome. |
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Jayhawker Soule
New Member
21 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2009 : 04:26:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
No, the press releases of these groups are not reflective of a large percentage of Christians in Switzerland. Other than petty bigotry, this fact provides zero basis for concluding that the ban is "reflective" of Christians in general, much less Christianity. |
Actually, it adds to a large pile of evidence that religious people treat each other poorly. |
In fact, there is "a large pile of evidence that ... people treat each other poorly." What is unacceptable is that you submit this 'evidence' to support a bigoted presupposition. |
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Jayhawker Soule
New Member
21 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2009 : 04:28:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bob Lloyd
Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
Originally posted by Bob Lloyd
It's interesting that whereas the news shows the influence of social and religious bigotry, the discussion seems to have revolved around accusations about one or other religious group line. It really doesn't matter what the political line of the religious institutions was. The problem is that, as ever, religion is the spur for prejudice. |
The Islamophobic reaction seen in Switzerland is not fundamentally different from that seen in France and the Netherlands. The common denominator is not religion but national chauvinism and fear.
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Judaism insists that they are the chosen race, ... |
That is a pathetically stupid and antisemitic statement. |
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Jayhawker Soule
New Member
21 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2009 : 04:30:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
... All major religions are totalitarian by nature; "only we have the correct view and all the rest of you will rot in.... (nasty place/whatever of choice)." |
You continue to embarrass yourself ...  |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2009 : 05:02:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
In fact, there is "a large pile of evidence that ... people treat each other poorly." |
Yes, there is that, also. But do you have evidence that what occurred in France, the Netherlands and Switzerland would still have happened in the absence of both Christianity and Islam?| What is unacceptable is that you submit this 'evidence' to support a bigoted presupposition. |
How is it bigoted? How is it a presupposition? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 12/09/2009 : 05:13:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
Originally posted by filthy
... All major religions are totalitarian by nature; "only we have the correct view and all the rest of you will rot in.... (nasty place/whatever of choice)." |
You continue to embarrass yourself ...
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Odd, I don't feel embarrassed. Are you a professional quote-miner or is it merely a hobby?
Here's an idea: why not refute the post rather than indulge in ad hom nonsense?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Jayhawker Soule
New Member
21 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2009 : 05:46:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
In fact, there is "a large pile of evidence that ... people treat each other poorly." |
Yes, there is that, also. But do you have evidence that what occurred in France, the Netherlands and Switzerland would still have happened in the absence of both Christianity and Islam? |
True: in the absence of Christianity and Islam there would almost certainly have been no ban on minarets. Very incisive, Dave!  |
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Jayhawker Soule
New Member
21 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2009 : 05:47:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
Originally posted by filthy
... All major religions are totalitarian by nature; "only we have the correct view and all the rest of you will rot in.... (nasty place/whatever of choice)." |
You continue to embarrass yourself ...
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Odd, I don't feel embarrassed. |
I'm not surprised ... |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2009 : 05:57:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
Originally posted by filthy
... All major religions are totalitarian by nature; "only we have the correct view and all the rest of you will rot in.... (nasty place/whatever of choice)." |
You continue to embarrass yourself ...
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Odd, I don't feel embarrassed. |
I'm not surprised ...
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Odd, I don't feel embarrassed. Are you a professional quote-miner or is it merely a hobby?
Here's an idea: why not refute the post rather than indulge in ad hom nonsense? |
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2009 : 07:05:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
A few things I did not know about minarets:
They are, as we are aware, intended for a muezzin to call the faithful to prayer, or at least they used to be. These days they, like most Christian church steeples, are pretty much decorative and any calls are done through loud-speakers, saving wear & tear on the muezzin's knees and shoes, if not his larynx.
The call, in Muhammad's day, were made from the roof of the tallest, near-by building. In later years, minarets were attached to the mosque and built as tall as feasible so that they could serve as a guiding beacon to the traveler, and to mark territory.
| The oldest minaret in the world is in Kairouan, Tunisia. Built between 724 and 727, it has a massive square form. The tallest minaret in the world is that of the new Hassan II Mosque in Casablanca, Morocco, which stands 210 meters tall. Minarets were built to be “landmarks of Islam” — to be visible from afar and to stamp an area with Islamic character. |
Interesting, no?
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I hated living in Syria and being woken up every day at ca. 4 am by the calls to prayer. After awhile, I started to wonder about the effects of sleep deprivation on the ability to brainwash and I started to have more respect (in a twisted way) for Muhammad. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2009 : 07:32:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
True: in the absence of Christianity and Islam there would almost certainly have been no ban on minarets. Very incisive, Dave! |
Evasion of the point (and follow-up questions) doesn't support your assertions, so I take it you're just here to fling abuse around. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2009 : 08:49:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
Furthermore, the proposition: the majority of X are N,
therefore X is characteristic of N |
is a pretty pathetic fallacy.
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Ok, inserting Christianity and "not moral" I get:
the majority of Christianity are "not moral",
therefore Christianity is characteristic of "not moral" In other words, you're saying that Dave wrote (paraphrased):
A majority of Christians are not moral,
therefore: Christianity is an attribute that most immoral people have.
Edited to inject (in blue): Re-reading the statement above, with my experience of christians both IRL and online, doesn't ring all that untrue...
Which is not how I interpreted Dave's post.
Well, you obviously think you're smart, while at the same time thinking I'm stupid.
So why don't you explain to me in more detail and in simpler language:
Firstly, how the "the majority of Christianity are "not moral",
therefore Christianity is characteristic of "not moral"" can become a Cum hoc ergo propter hoc.
Secondly, how Dave's "I'm arguing that the numbers suggest that defending people of other religions is not characteristic of Christians, despite the teachings of Jesus Christ" can even become a non causa pro causa.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 12/09/2009 08:56:44 |
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Bob Lloyd
Skeptic Friend
Spain
59 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 08:11:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
Originally posted by Bob Lloyd
Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
Originally posted by Bob Lloyd
It's interesting that whereas the news shows the influence of social and religious bigotry, the discussion seems to have revolved around accusations about one or other religious group line. It really doesn't matter what the political line of the religious institutions was. The problem is that, as ever, religion is the spur for prejudice. |
The Islamophobic reaction seen in Switzerland is not fundamentally different from that seen in France and the Netherlands. The common denominator is not religion but national chauvinism and fear.
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Judaism insists that they are the chosen race, ... |
That is a pathetically stupid and antisemitic statement.
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No it's not!! What an outrageous suggestion!! You should use the word antisemitic very carefully because my comment is in no way antisemitic. It is a fact that the Torah, the Jewish holy book, is seen as the authoritative religious source of the claim that the Jewish people, amongst the Israelite tribes, were the chosen people. Rabinical scholars have always cited Deuteronomy 7:6 as being one of the authoritative source:
"For you are a people consecrated to the LORD your God: of all the peoples on earth the LORD your God chose you to be his treasured people."
It goes on of course, to explain that the land is being cleared for them by God, and that they should give no quarter to anyone who won't leave - an argument that modern Zionists continually use to justify the expulsion of the Palestinians.
Such comments are not anti-Jewish. Very many Jewish people deplore such Zionism. Maybe it's important to explain that criticising religious ideas is perfectly acceptable and doesn't involve prejudice. Religious ideas are not exempt from criticism and I strongly object to the claim that I am antisemitic.
You are factually wrong but worse, you are trying to use the word antisemitic to stiffle discussion. I've read the Torah, the Bible (yes, all of it) and the Qur'an - perhaps you should do the same. On the Christian book genealogy, I'd recommend Regis Debray's book God: An Itinerary, a bit of a heavy read, but certainly a good antidote to flippant accusations of antisemitism. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 10:22:06 [Permalink]
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Odd. Jayhawker Soule hasn't bothered to hurl at insult at me. Oh wait. I haven't contributed to this thread...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Swiss Ban Building of Minarets
