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Jayhawker Soule
New Member
21 Posts |
 Posted - 12/07/2009 : 04:16:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
Originally posted by filthy
I would think that the Christians, especially Catholics, being heavily invested in icons themselves, would rise in defense of their Islamic cousins but it doesn't seem to be happening.
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Perhaps if you were operating on something beyond prejudiced reflex you would have come across information such as ...
| Catholic bishops oppose a minaret ban. A statement from the Swiss Bishops Conference said that a ban would hinder interreligious dialogue and added that the construction and operation of minarets were already regulated by Swiss building codes. The statement requested that "the initiative to be rejected is based on our Christian values and the democratic principles in our country." The official journal of the Catholic Church in Switzerland publishes a series of articles on the minaret controversy. The Federation of Swiss Protestant Churches holds that the popular initiative is not about minarets, but is rather an expression of the initiators’ concern and fear of Islam. It views a minaret ban as a wrong approach to overcome such objections. The Swiss Federation of Jewish Communities are also against any ban on building minarets. Says Dr Herbert Winter, the president of the Federation: “As Jews we have our own experience. For centuries we were excluded: we were not allowed to construct synagogues or cupola roofs. We do not want that kind of exclusion repeated.” Many other religious organisations find the idea of a complete minaret ban as lamentable. These are: the Association of Evangelical Free Churches and Communities in Switzerland; the Swiss Evangelical Alliance; the Old Catholic Church in Switzerland; the Covenant of Swiss Baptists; the Salvation Army; the Federation of Evangelical Lutheran Churches in Switzerland; the Orthodox Diocese the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople; the Serbian Orthodox Church in Switzerland; and the Anglican Church in Switzerland. source |
It took me all of about 20 seconds to find the above. You see what you want to see: willful ignorance is not an attractive trait.
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Link please. |
The link is clearly indicated ... 
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Missed that. Sorry. Eyes ain't what they used to be. |
Prejudice does that to a person.
Originally posted by filthy
But why are you being so snotty? Do I detect a little atheist prejudice, hmm? |
What you detect is contempt for bigotry. Why you would interpret it as "atheist prejudice" is beyond me. Did you perhaps mean "anti-atheist prejudice," i.e., is it that you are not thinking clearly, not communicating clearly, or both? |
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Jayhawker Soule
New Member
21 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2009 : 04:26:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
In other words, the press releases of these groups are not reflective of Christians in general rising "in defense of their Islamic cousins." The effort to enact this "reprehensible" amendment seems to have been started by a Christian and found majority Christian support.
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No, the press releases of these groups are not reflective of a large percentage of Christians in Switzerland. Other than petty bigotry, this fact provides zero basis for concluding that the ban is "reflective" of Christians in general, much less Christianity. Furthermore, the proposition: the majority of X are N,
therefore X is characteristic of N |
is a pretty pathetic fallacy.
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| Edited by - Jayhawker Soule on 12/07/2009 05:14:11 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2009 : 04:32:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
Originally posted by filthy
I would think that the Christians, especially Catholics, being heavily invested in icons themselves, would rise in defense of their Islamic cousins but it doesn't seem to be happening.
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Perhaps if you were operating on something beyond prejudiced reflex you would have come across information such as ...
| Catholic bishops oppose a minaret ban. A statement from the Swiss Bishops Conference said that a ban would hinder interreligious dialogue and added that the construction and operation of minarets were already regulated by Swiss building codes. The statement requested that "the initiative to be rejected is based on our Christian values and the democratic principles in our country." The official journal of the Catholic Church in Switzerland publishes a series of articles on the minaret controversy. The Federation of Swiss Protestant Churches holds that the popular initiative is not about minarets, but is rather an expression of the initiators’ concern and fear of Islam. It views a minaret ban as a wrong approach to overcome such objections. The Swiss Federation of Jewish Communities are also against any ban on building minarets. Says Dr Herbert Winter, the president of the Federation: “As Jews we have our own experience. For centuries we were excluded: we were not allowed to construct synagogues or cupola roofs. We do not want that kind of exclusion repeated.” Many other religious organisations find the idea of a complete minaret ban as lamentable. These are: the Association of Evangelical Free Churches and Communities in Switzerland; the Swiss Evangelical Alliance; the Old Catholic Church in Switzerland; the Covenant of Swiss Baptists; the Salvation Army; the Federation of Evangelical Lutheran Churches in Switzerland; the Orthodox Diocese the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople; the Serbian Orthodox Church in Switzerland; and the Anglican Church in Switzerland. source |
It took me all of about 20 seconds to find the above. You see what you want to see: willful ignorance is not an attractive trait.
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Link please. |
The link is clearly indicated ...
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Missed that. Sorry. Eyes ain't what they used to be. |
Prejudice does that to a person.
Originally posted by filthy
But why are you being so snotty? Do I detect a little atheist prejudice, hmm? |
What you detect is contempt for bigotry. Why you would interpret it as "atheist prejudice" is beyond me. Did you perhaps mean "anti-atheist prejudice," i.e., is it that you are not thinking clearly, not communicating clearly, or both?
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Advanced age makes the eyes fade. And how exactly does contempt for superstition become bigotry?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Bob Lloyd
Skeptic Friend
Spain
59 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2009 : 05:04:36 [Permalink]
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It's interesting that whereas the news shows the influence of social and religious bigotry, the discussion seems to have revolved around accusations about one or other religious group line. It really doesn't matter what the political line of the religious institutions was. The problem is that, as ever, religion is the spur for prejudice. While the religious institutions can keep their own prejudice low key and controlled (along the line of "have sympathy for those not saved, not of the chosen race, sinning, etc"), at root, religious beliefs often fuel an underlying racism and intolerance. Its social conservatism can so easily break out into prejudice and discrimination.
It's embarrassing for these religious groups to see now that despite their own narrow interests in preserving the availability of their icons and rituals, the hostility implicitly encouraged against those who are different has erupted into a society-wide rejection of islam. Such rejection often accompanies times of economic difficulty, and can so easily fuel the growth of reactionary movements. It's a very worrying development because the Swiss extreme right will no doubt take advantage of the prejudice amongst the Swiss population. There has already been an increase in racist attacks. |
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Jayhawker Soule
New Member
21 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2009 : 05:18:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bob Lloyd
It's interesting that whereas the news shows the influence of social and religious bigotry, the discussion seems to have revolved around accusations about one or other religious group line. It really doesn't matter what the political line of the religious institutions was. The problem is that, as ever, religion is the spur for prejudice. |
The Islamophobic reaction seen in Switzerland is not fundamentally different from that seen in France and the Netherlands. The common denominator is not religion but national chauvinism and fear. |
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Jayhawker Soule
New Member
21 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2009 : 05:25:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
Originally posted by filthy
I would think that the Christians, especially Catholics, being heavily invested in icons themselves, would rise in defense of their Islamic cousins but it doesn't seem to be happening.
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Perhaps if you were operating on something beyond prejudiced reflex you would have come across information such as ...
| Catholic bishops oppose a minaret ban. A statement from the Swiss Bishops Conference said that a ban would hinder interreligious dialogue and added that the construction and operation of minarets were already regulated by Swiss building codes. The statement requested that "the initiative to be rejected is based on our Christian values and the democratic principles in our country." The official journal of the Catholic Church in Switzerland publishes a series of articles on the minaret controversy. The Federation of Swiss Protestant Churches holds that the popular initiative is not about minarets, but is rather an expression of the initiators’ concern and fear of Islam. It views a minaret ban as a wrong approach to overcome such objections. The Swiss Federation of Jewish Communities are also against any ban on building minarets. Says Dr Herbert Winter, the president of the Federation: “As Jews we have our own experience. For centuries we were excluded: we were not allowed to construct synagogues or cupola roofs. We do not want that kind of exclusion repeated.” Many other religious organisations find the idea of a complete minaret ban as lamentable. These are: the Association of Evangelical Free Churches and Communities in Switzerland; the Swiss Evangelical Alliance; the Old Catholic Church in Switzerland; the Covenant of Swiss Baptists; the Salvation Army; the Federation of Evangelical Lutheran Churches in Switzerland; the Orthodox Diocese the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople; the Serbian Orthodox Church in Switzerland; and the Anglican Church in Switzerland. source |
It took me all of about 20 seconds to find the above. You see what you want to see: willful ignorance is not an attractive trait.
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Link please. |
The link is clearly indicated ...
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Missed that. Sorry. Eyes ain't what they used to be. |
Prejudice does that to a person.
Originally posted by filthy
But why are you being so snotty? Do I detect a little atheist prejudice, hmm? |
What you detect is contempt for bigotry. Why you would interpret it as "atheist prejudice" is beyond me. Did you perhaps mean "anti-atheist prejudice," i.e., is it that you are not thinking clearly, not communicating clearly, or both?
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Advanced age makes the eyes fade. And how exactly does contempt for superstition become bigotry? |
You are starting to drift and babble. I certainly hope it is not solely a function of advanced age -- I turn 65 next year. |
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Jayhawker Soule
New Member
21 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2009 : 05:43:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
We can also say that the majority of Swiss white adults voted for the ban. Therefore?
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Therefore the majority of Swiss white adults should be ashamed of themselves. Do you agree? |
Absolutely. I simply reject the flawed inference that the stance is characteristic of being white. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 12/07/2009 : 05:52:35 [Permalink]
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| You are starting to drift and babble. I certainly hope it is not solely a function of advanced age -- I turn 65 next year. |
Read my profile -- I am seventy and you are not answering the question: How exactly does a contempt for superstition equate to bigotry. It was you who brought it up, hence is you who is responsible for the explanation. Do proceed.
On a much more interesting matter than my evident bigotry, here's the full story on the minaret ban:
"Minaret controversy in Switzerland
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
The Ahmadiyya mosque in ZürichThe construction of minarets has been subject to legal and political controversy in Switzerland as of the year 2000. On 1 May 2007, a group of right-wing politicians mainly from the Swiss People's Party and the Federal Democratic Union, the Egerkinger Kommittee ("Egerkingen Committee") launched a federal popular initiative that sought a constitutional ban on minarets.
In a referendum on 29 November 2009, the amendment was approved by 57.5% of the participating voters.[1] Only four of the 26 Swiss cantons,[2] mostly in the French-speaking part of Switzerland, opposed the initiative.
As of the date of the vote, there were four minarets in Switzerland, attached to mosques in Zürich, Geneva, Winterthur and Wangen bei Olten. These existing minarets are not affected by the ban.
The Swiss minaret controversy began in a small municipality in the northern part of Switzerland in 2005. The contention involved the Turkish cultural association in Wangen bei Olten, which applied for a construction permit to erect a 6-metre-high minaret on the roof of its Islamic community centre. The project faced opposition from surrounding residents, who had formed a group to prevent the tower's erection. The Turkish association claimed that the building authorities improperly and arbitrarily delayed its building application. They also believed that the members of the local opposition group were motivated by religious bias. The Communal Building and Planning Commission rejected the association's application. The applicants appealed to the Building and Justice Department, which reverted the decision and remanded. As a consequence of that decision, local residents (who were members of the group mentioned) and the commune of Wangen brought the case before the Administrative Court of the Canton of Solothurn, but failed with their claims. On appeal the Federal Supreme Court affirmed the decision of the lower court. The 6-metre (20 ft)-high minaret was eventually erected in July 2009.[3]
[edit] Political dispute
From 2006 until 2008, members of the Swiss People's Party and the Federal Democratic Union launched several cantonal initiatives against the erection of minarets. The cantonal citizenry never had the opportunity to vote on it because all cantonal parliaments held the initiatives unconstitutional and therefore void.[4]"
And so forth.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 12/07/2009 05:54:13 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2009 : 10:42:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
Furthermore, the proposition: the majority of X are N,
therefore X is characteristic of N |
is a pretty pathetic fallacy.
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I missed that one. Please name the fallacy so I can google it properly. Thanks. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2009 : 11:18:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
No, the press releases of these groups are not reflective of a large percentage of Christians in Switzerland. Other than petty bigotry, this fact provides zero basis for concluding that the ban is "reflective" of Christians in general, much less Christianity. |
Actually, it adds to a large pile of evidence that religious people treat each other poorly.Furthermore, the proposition: the majority of X are N,
therefore X is characteristic of N |
is a pretty pathetic fallacy. |
Except that I'm arguing that the numbers suggest that defending people of other religions is not characteristic of Christians, despite the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Really, we've got thousands of years of evidence already. What happened in Switzerland can't be viewed in a historical vacuum, independent of all the other reprehensible acts by Christians as a group.
So, with the massive amounts of solid evidence available, can the attitudes expressed towards Christians in this thread really be prejudice? The word implies a lack of reason. Ditto for bigotry.
You also wrote:| The Islamophobic reaction seen in Switzerland is not fundamentally different from that seen in France and the Netherlands. The common denominator is not religion but national chauvinism and fear. |
As soon as you use the word "Islamophobic," the common denominators surely become Islam and fear. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2009 : 14:53:28 [Permalink]
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A few things I did not know about minarets:
They are, as we are aware, intended for a muezzin to call the faithful to prayer, or at least they used to be. These days they, like most Christian church steeples, are pretty much decorative and any calls are done through loud-speakers, saving wear & tear on the muezzin's knees and shoes, if not his larynx.
The call, in Muhammad's day, were made from the roof of the tallest, near-by building. In later years, minarets were attached to the mosque and built as tall as feasible so that they could serve as a guiding beacon to the traveler, and to mark territory.
| The oldest minaret in the world is in Kairouan, Tunisia. Built between 724 and 727, it has a massive square form. The tallest minaret in the world is that of the new Hassan II Mosque in Casablanca, Morocco, which stands 210 meters tall. Minarets were built to be “landmarks of Islam” — to be visible from afar and to stamp an area with Islamic character. |
Interesting, no?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 12/07/2009 14:55:28 |
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Bob Lloyd
Skeptic Friend
Spain
59 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2009 : 06:18:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Jayhawker Soule
Originally posted by Bob Lloyd
It's interesting that whereas the news shows the influence of social and religious bigotry, the discussion seems to have revolved around accusations about one or other religious group line. It really doesn't matter what the political line of the religious institutions was. The problem is that, as ever, religion is the spur for prejudice. |
The Islamophobic reaction seen in Switzerland is not fundamentally different from that seen in France and the Netherlands. The common denominator is not religion but national chauvinism and fear.
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It's interesting that the religious organisations can see the consequences of religious intolerance and many of them have suffered discrimination themselves so as a consequence they adopt a pragmatic approach, religious tolerance.
And yet the tenets of their faith are such as to insist that their religion is the right one and to disparage the others. Judaism insists that they are the chosen race, as does Islam. Despite the pronouncements of the religious institutions in favour of tolerance, I think that they do so out of organisational self-interest. The tenets of their faith are implicitly derrogatory of other faiths and of course, their religious books call down incredibly punishments on idolators, false prophets, disbelievers, etc. The moment they set themselves up as chosen, they identify others as non-chosen and therein lies the inherent discrimination and prejudice.
Of course it meshes wonderfully with social and national chauvinism. In Spain the catholic church backed Franco based on just such a chauvinism. Ditto in Italy. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2009 : 06:42:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by filthy
Their reputation was such that they were hired to protect the Vatican, a position they still hold. |
Isn't that the military equivalent of being a mall cop?
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It might be now, but back in the day, when the Church was at it's foulest, they were needed. And if you were a king and wanted to rip off a neighboring country, you hired the Swiss to bolster your troop strength. Beside those guys, the Blackwater clown show is a bunch of wimps.
Their history is a very good read.
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Besides the fact that all the Vatican's Swiss Guards are retired members of the Swiss Army, they are rather better armed than their ceremonial equipage might suggest:| Besides their traditional arms the Swiss Guard also has contemporary non-ceremonial small arms like SIG P225 pistols, Heckler & Koch MP5A3 submachine guns and SIG SG 550 assault rifles at its disposal for security duties.[7] Besides the Heckler & Koch MP5A3, these small arms are also in use by the Swiss military. The Guard also engages in yearly rifle competition and receives self-defense instruction, as well as basic instruction on defensive bodyguard tactics similar to those used in the protection of many heads of state. |
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2009 : 07:51:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by filthy
Their reputation was such that they were hired to protect the Vatican, a position they still hold. |
Isn't that the military equivalent of being a mall cop?
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It might be now, but back in the day, when the Church was at it's foulest, they were needed. And if you were a king and wanted to rip off a neighboring country, you hired the Swiss to bolster your troop strength. Beside those guys, the Blackwater clown show is a bunch of wimps.
Their history is a very good read.
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Besides the fact that all the Vatican's Swiss Guards are retired members of the Swiss Army, they are rather better armed than their ceremonial equipage might suggest:| Besides their traditional arms the Swiss Guard also has contemporary non-ceremonial small arms like SIG P225 pistols, Heckler & Koch MP5A3 submachine guns and SIG SG 550 assault rifles at its disposal for security duties.[7] Besides the Heckler & Koch MP5A3, these small arms are also in use by the Swiss military. The Guard also engages in yearly rifle competition and receives self-defense instruction, as well as basic instruction on defensive bodyguard tactics similar to those used in the protection of many heads of state. |
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Yes, and that is why I've postponed my plans to lay siege to the Vatican.
All major religions are totalitarian by nature; "only we have the correct view and all the rest of you will rot in.... (nasty place/whatever of choice)." As Bob mentioned, they can no longer spread their gospel by means of force, so they resort to politics. We see it happening here in the US, with various bishops influencing our politicians like sleezy, corporate lobbyists. And they still issue threats, albeit toothless ones, like withholding Communion.
But of course, the various churches have, in one way or another, been political entities from the beginning.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Jayhawker Soule
New Member
21 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2009 : 04:18:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
| You are starting to drift and babble. I certainly hope it is not solely a function of advanced age -- I turn 65 next year. |
Read my profile -- I am seventy and you are not answering the question: How exactly does a contempt for superstition equate to bigotry. |
Please show where I've asserted such an equation. I am not answering your question because it is irrelevant. You seem to be confused.
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Swiss Ban Building of Minarets
