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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26024 Posts |
 Posted - 04/14/2010 : 06:30:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
Let's see, Demjanjuk was tried in '87, (I got the date wrong), and released in '93(?). Hmmmm, 6 years in prison for a crime he didn't commit. But, as a 'skeptic' like you I figure he 'probably' was a guard at Treblinka, based on absolutely no evidence, and a guard at Sobibor, etc. as well. But, at the trial, we did have 'evidence', five eyewitnesses identified him as 'Ivan the Terrible', when, in truth, Demjanuk had never set foot in Treblinka. Oh, wait a minute, I said 'truth', and that's a violation of Rule 2 againt false dichotomies. As a 'skeptic' I take that back.
New paragraph cause we're getting to the good part. One of the most respected holocaust eyewitnesses, Eliahu Rosenburg, was one of the eyewitnesses identifying Demjanjuk as Ivan. A little problem arose at the trial when it was revealed that Rosenburg had testifed in an earlier case that he was present when Ivan was killed in the camp uprising. But, of course, the Israeli court, true 'skeptics', recognized that obvious false dichotomy, dead vs. alive, and his testimony was not challenged.
Folks, you can't make this stuff up. Ain't 'skepticism' great
One little note - Demjanuk was tried, convicted, and sentenced to death. When it was revealed that forged documents were used to extradite him from the US, two politicians, Pat Buchanan and James Traficant got involved, and finally pressure from the US caused the Israeli court to reverse the decision and release Demjanuk. |
Rule 1. All of it. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2010 : 06:02:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Rule 1. All of it.
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Pay attention 
If you're going to use the rules, you should try to understand them.
I'll make it easy ..... here's a synopsis to date ...
The topic was mass graves.
Well, no mass graves because they disappeared. So dantheman wins his challenge. A pity he's not here to celebrate
How did they disappear?
The Nazis did it. What's the evidence? Wisliceny (sp?) said so, and there is no reason for him to lie.
Now, I admit I can't recall how Malagon got into the mix, but I'll assume that he somehow testified that he saw it all. Well, there could certainly be no reason to doubt N. Malagon.
Except ... well his testimony was used to convict an innocent man, John Demjanjuk and sentence him to death .... but, that happens everyday, according to tomk80.
So, the Demjanuk hoax trial and Malagon's role in it is specifically related to question as it impeaches his testimony regarding body disposal.
See, it's called thinking . Try it sometime.
But beyond that, the Israeli court's use of five lying eyewitnesses, and these included some of the most respected holocaust survivors, ...... well, it's beyond comment .... and of course of absolutely no interest to the 'skeptics' here, except possibly to excuse .... that too is beyond comment ...
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| Edited by - Rudolfo on 04/15/2010 06:09:00 |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2010 : 06:18:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
If you're going to use the rules, you should try to understand them. |
Fuck, my irony meter took half my desk with it.
I didn't even have this thread open... |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2010 : 06:58:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
Pay attention
If you're going to use the rules, you should try to understand them.
I'll make it easy ..... here's a synopsis to date ...
See, it's called thinking. Try it sometime.
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You got a lot of balls. You are a guest here. Dave's had a lot more patience with you than i would if I were in his position. I don't see where you get off coming here, making up your own rules, then insulting one of the moderators here.
On another note, apparently this week is "Holocaust remembrance Week". Without going into detail, there are so many testimonies from US photographers who photographed some of the camps as they were first discovered by Allied forces, testimonies of camp survivors, testimonies of soldiers, and on and on...
So Rudy, how can you possibly discount the OVERWHELMING evidence?  .
I know you won't because you're too much of a pussy, but don't bother responding. NOTHING you say or do here or elsewhere will change the facts. And your life has amounted to nothing. It must suck to be you. |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/15/2010 : 07:09:12 [Permalink]
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Rudolfo, I would think long and hard before I used Pat Buchanan and James Traficant for any sort of a reference on Demjanjuk. The former is an anti-semitic scumbag and the latter is a convicted sneak thief.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26024 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2010 : 09:03:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
Pay attention |
Why should I if you refuse to do so?| If you're going to use the rules, you should try to understand them. |
I'm not using them, I'm pointing out where you are using them.| Now, I admit I can't recall how Malagon got into the mix... |
Lazy, aren't you? It shows, a lot....but I'll assume that he somehow testified that he saw it all. Well, there could certainly be no reason to doubt N. Malagon.
Except ... well his testimony was used to convict an innocent man, John Demjanjuk and sentence him to death .... |
Was it? You'll have to quote the trial transcripts on that one, since the last I knew, all the testimony about Ivan was from Jews, not Malagon. Hell, Malagon wasn't even questioned about Demjanjuk until 1978, a year after the INS had already started deportation proceedings against Demjanjuk due to his identification by five Holocaust survivors.| So, the Demjanuk hoax trial and Malagon's role in it is specifically related to question as it impeaches his testimony regarding body disposal. |
You're going to have to provide evidence that Malagon played any role at all in Demjanjuk's trial. And even if you can manage that, you'll have to provide evidence that Malagon identified Demjanjuk as "Ivan the Terrible" in order to impeach any of his testimony. Here's what he had to say:In the same camp I met the guard Ivan Demedyuk or Ivan Dem'yanyuk (I do not remember his name precisely). This guard was of average height and heavy build, spoke Ukrainian and had light brown hair. His speech was pure; he pronounced everything well. I do not know where he was from, since I did not talk to him about this. While I was at the Treblinka death camp, he worked there as a cook, preparing food for the guards.
I could identify the guard whom I have named as Demedyuk or Dem'yanyuk from photographs.
...Ivan Demedyuk or Ivan Dem'yanyuk remained at Treblinka... Here, from what other guards (whose names I do not remember) said, I learned that Ivan Demedyuk or Ivan Dem'yanyuk, who had worked as a cook at Treblinka, had been transferred to work as a gas chamber operator. His later fate is unknown to me. That's it. If you can somehow twist that into Malagon lying about Demjanjuk being Ivan the Terrible, I will applaud.| See, it's called thinking. Try it sometime. |
It's called Rule 1, and you use it all the time.| But beyond that, the Israeli court's use of five lying eyewitnesses, and these included some of the most respected holocaust survivors, ...... well, it's beyond comment .... |
Of course it's beyond comment. You can't bring yourself to do the mental gymnastics anymore to justify that the witnesses were lying, when they simply might have been mistaken.| ...and of course of absolutely no interest to the 'skeptics' here, except possibly to excuse .... that too is beyond comment ... |
Rule 1. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2010 : 10:09:15 [Permalink]
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Fripp:
Dave's had a lot more patience with you than i would if I were in his position. I don't see where you get off coming here, making up your own rules, then insulting one of the moderators here. |
Actually, he is insulting an administrator. And yes, Dave is very patient. Rudolfo would have been toast long ago on any other forum by now. But hey, sometimes it's fun to bat the ball around. And a demonstration of Rudlofo's hypocrisy has value. After all, those are his rules... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2010 : 13:34:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
I'll make it easy ..... here's a synopsis to date ...
The topic was mass graves.
Well, no mass graves because they disappeared. So dantheman wins his challenge. A pity he's not here to celebrate |
Que? Nobody ever said there should have been mass graves in the first place.
How did they disappear?
The Nazis did it. What's the evidence? Wisliceny (sp?) said so, and there is no reason for him to lie. |
If that was the only evidence, you might possibly have a point. It isn't, so you don't.
Now, I admit I can't recall how Malagon got into the mix, but I'll assume that he somehow testified that he saw it all. Well, there could certainly be no reason to doubt N. Malagon.
Except ... well his testimony was used to convict an innocent man, John Demjanjuk and sentence him to death .... |
His testimony was not used to sentence him to death.
| but, that happens everyday, according to tomk80. |
In what fantasy world do you live that you think trials cannot reach wrong conclusions?
| So, the Demjanuk hoax trial and Malagon's role in it is specifically related to question as it impeaches his testimony regarding body disposal. |
Malagon's testimony was not the result of the trial. It was already obtained much earlier as part of Russian investigations into the holocaust in 1978 and 1979, way before the Demjanjuk trial.
Furthermore, Malagon's testimony was not used in the trial that sentenced Demjanjuk to death. Malagon's testimony was in fact one of the reasons why Demjanjuk was released by the Israeli higher court. He named Marchenko as the guard who operated the gas motors, not Demjanjuk, who Malagon identified as a cook.
I find it quite ironic that you label the very testimony that played a role in acquitting Demjanjuk as untrustworthy. But then, consistency isn't really your strong suit, is it? Let me give you a hint. Before you reject a testimony, you should actually study it first.
| See, it's called thinking. Try it sometime. |
Why don't you? Start with correcting the various leaps of illogic you made here.
| But beyond that, the Israeli court's use of five lying eyewitnesses, and these included some of the most respected holocaust survivors, ...... well, it's beyond comment .... and of course of absolutely no interest to the 'skeptics' here, except possibly to excuse .... that too is beyond comment ... |
There is a difference between mistaken identity and lying. To further shatter your fantasy world, sometimes victims identify the wrong purpetrator. Shocking, I know. That a victim cannot correctly identify the purpetrator does not mean the events the victim suffered through didn't happen. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
| Edited by - tomk80 on 04/15/2010 13:36:29 |
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2010 : 04:12:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Furthermore, Malagon's testimony was not used in the trial that sentenced Demjanjuk to death. Malagon's testimony was in fact one of the reasons why Demjanjuk was released by the Israeli higher court. He named Marchenko as the guard who operated the gas motors, not Demjanjuk, who Malagon identified as a cook.
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I'll admit that the lies of a pathological liar like N. Malagon don't interest me very much, but if you're going to comment, why not at least read the thread, where Dave W. writes ... quoting Malagon ...
...Ivan Demedyuk or Ivan Dem'yanyuk remained at Treblinka... Here, from what other guards (whose names I do not remember) said, I learned that Ivan Demedyuk or Ivan Dem'yanyuk, who had worked as a cook at Treblinka, had been transferred to work as a gas chamber operator. His later fate is unknown to me.
Originally posted by tomk80
There is a difference between mistaken identity and lying.
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Indeed. Here is an incident described in a great paper by Mark Weber on the Nuremberg trials ....
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p167_Webera.html
"New York "Nazi hunter" Charles Kremer visited Israel in 1981 looking for Jews who could confirm atrocities allegedly committed by a former Ukrainian SS man living in New Jersey. But Kremer cut short his visit, bitterly disappointed by the numerous Jews who offered to provide spurious "testimony" in return for money. As the Brooklyn Jewish Press reported, "Kremer was stricken with gastronomic pains -- a malady he attributes to his difficulties in dealing with hucksters who tried to use his search for their personal gain." (note 70)
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2010 : 05:01:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
I'll admit that the lies of a pathological liar like N. Malagon don't interest me very much, but if you're going to comment, why not at least read the thread, where Dave W. writes ... quoting Malagon ... |
You have yet to substantiate that his testimony is incorrect. So far, the only thing you have provided is blather. If you are going to alledge that Malagon was a liar, you should first actually have studied the testimony. You have not done so.
| ...Ivan Demedyuk or Ivan Dem'yanyuk remained at Treblinka... Here, from what other guards (whose names I do not remember) said, I learned that Ivan Demedyuk or Ivan Dem'yanyuk, who had worked as a cook at Treblinka, had been transferred to work as a gas chamber operator. His later fate is unknown to me. |
Transferred, meaning moved to another camp. Demjanjuk is currently on trial in Germany because it is thought he worked as a gas chamber operator in Sobibor, amongst others.
Again, Demjanjuk was tried in Israel because he was accused of being Iwan the Terrible. This was what he was initially sentenced for and what was later rectified, amongst others on the basis of the testimony of Malagon who stated that he had met Demjanjuk in Treblinka working as a cook, although Malagon stated that he had heard that he was later transferred to a different camp to work as a gas chamber operator. The high court determined that other accusations of working at Treblinka or other camps were outside the scope of the trial.
Originally posted by tomk80
There is a difference between mistaken identity and lying.
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Indeed. Here is an incident described in a great paper by Mark Weber on the Nuremberg trials ....
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p167_Webera.html
"New York "Nazi hunter" Charles Kremer visited Israel in 1981 looking for Jews who could confirm atrocities allegedly committed by a former Ukrainian SS man living in New Jersey. But Kremer cut short his visit, bitterly disappointed by the numerous Jews who offered to provide spurious "testimony" in return for money. As the Brooklyn Jewish Press reported, "Kremer was stricken with gastronomic pains -- a malady he attributes to his difficulties in dealing with hucksters who tried to use his search for their personal gain." (note 70)
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And?
Again, that some people wanted to profit of the misery of others is not evidence that that misery of others never happened, just as the fact that somebody misidentified the face of a guard at Treblinka does not mean that that somebody never was in Treblinka or that events in Treblinka as told by that person didn't happen. Why you find this so hard for you to understand alludes me. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
| Edited by - tomk80 on 04/16/2010 05:05:10 |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2010 : 05:03:55 [Permalink]
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Oh yeah, and I'm still waiting for an answer to this question:
"For the reading impaired (ie, Rudolfo), one of the people there managed to smuggle a grenade with him. When he was unloaded he threw it. Subsequently, guards opened fire on the group that included the person throwing the grenade.
What part of this sequence of events is impossible or even improbable?"
And this question:
"Oh, and I take it that now you have changed your position on Wisliceny, given that your "arguments" on why you wouldn't take him seriously have been answered and you subsequently mysteriously left the issue behind."
And I'm still waiting for an answer on my earlier comment that "you have yet to give a good reason why the testimony of Malagon cannot be trusted."
I'd say those questions are straightforward enough. When are you going to answer them? |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26024 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2010 : 06:55:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
I'll admit that the lies of a pathological liar like N. Malagon... |
What did he lie about? Be specific. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2010 : 05:42:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Rudolfo
I'll admit that the lies of a pathological liar like N. Malagon... |
What did he lie about? Be specific.
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Rule 4.
Hey, I'd thought for a minute you'd abandoned the rules He lied about the grenade. He lied about Demjanuk. If he said anything about body disposal at Treblinka he lied about that. How many times do I have to repeat things for the 'skeptics'?
I'll note that I tried to start a thread on holocaust eyewitness testimony .... but the 'skeptics' ran like rabbits.
Just to try to maintain some interest .... let's look at the timeline...we want to know when ...
Treblinka came online ...
Katyn discovered ...
Camp revolt ...
Research underway ....
Deportations from Warsaw ghetto - 7/42 to 9/42 300,000 Jews deported, I think this is when Treblinka came online as a 'killing center' , i.e. repeating the hoax nonsense as if it were fact.
Here's the USHMM chronology ...
(http://origin-www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007257)
Killing stops - 9/43
Total killed - 900,000
Oddly, the USHMM timeline does not mention body disposal. However, I believe the generally accepted time is shortly after the Katyn massacre was discovered by the Nazis. You see, when the Nazis excavated this real mass grave, they had an epiphany, 'the Allies might discover our mass graves' So, they started the disposal process. This complete idiocy is the official holocaust narrative.
Katyn - massacre occured in 1940 and was discovered by the Nazis in 4/43 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre)
Yep, that's what I was looking for. According to the official holocaust narrative the 8-10 Nazis and the 100 or so Ukrainians at Treblinka, this was the complete staff, dug up, burned, and buried 900,000 bodies in May, June, July of 1943. 300,000 bodies per month.
Does any 'skeptic' understand that this is complete insanity?
OK, well, how about an ounce of skepticism
[Edited to fix link - Dave W.] |
| Edited by - Rudolfo on 04/17/2010 05:47:17 |
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2010 : 06:13:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
Hey, I'd thought for a minute you'd abandoned the rules
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You mean the 'rules' that you made up? And then LIED about?
I'll note that I tried to start a thread on holocaust eyewitness testimony .... but the 'skeptics' ran like rabbits. |
That's rich. You're the pussy that won't even answer a simple fucking question. You're the gutless turd that ignores 'tough' questions like "what is your goal here?"
FACT: The Holocaust happened.
FACT: The evidence for the Holocaust is overwhelming for anyone with but the slightest intelligence.
FACT: Everyone in the world with an ounce of sense knows that the Holocaust happened.
FACT: the only people who question the Holocaust are pussy-neo-Nazis with an pre-formed agenda who ignore any facts that don't agree with that agenda.
FACT: You are in the same company as Ahmedinijad[sp?], Iran's president. You should be proud. At least he has a job, though. |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26024 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2010 : 06:40:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
He lied about the grenade. He lied about Demjanuk. If he said anything about body disposal at Treblinka he lied about that. How many times do I have to repeat things for the 'skeptics'? |
Rule 4. In context, I was asking about specific lies that Malagon told about Demjanjuk. That you suddenly switch to "the Rules" again indicates that you cannot provide any evidence that anything Malagon said about Demjanjuk (specifically, anything about Demjanjuk being Ivan the Terrible) was, indeed, a lie. Run, Rudolfo, run!| I'll note that I tried to start a thread on holocaust eyewitness testimony .... but the 'skeptics' ran like rabbits. |
Rule 4. You started a thread about Jewish eyewitness testimony after idiotically declaring that only Jews and Nazis provided such, while Malagon was neither.According to the official holocaust narrative the 8-10 Nazis and the 100 or so Ukrainians at Treblinka, this was the complete staff, dug up, burned, and buried 900,000 bodies in May, June, July of 1943. 300,000 bodies per month.
Does any 'skeptic' understand that this is complete insanity? |
Your incredulity is not evidence of anything. How many bodies could 110 "staff" plus the Jewish laborers that you neglected to mention burn in three months? What is the top limit that you think is physically possible? You must have already made this calculation in order to declare 300,000/month to be "complete insanity."| OK, well, how about an ounce of skepticism |
I'm willing to examine the evidence and listen to valid arguments, do you have any of either? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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A literal Jewish conspiracy
