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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
 Posted - 04/17/2010 : 06:41:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
He lied about the grenade. |
What was wrong about his testimony on the grenade. Be specific.
What did he lie about regarding Demjanjuk. Be specific.
| If he said anything about body disposal at Treblinka he lied about that. |
You don't know whether he said anything about body disposal? Then how do you know he lied about it?
| How many times do I have to repeat things for the 'skeptics'? |
You're supposed to actually show that he didn't tell the truth, instead of just handwaving. You didn't do so. You just pointed to a statement, misrepresented it and then called it a lie without anything to back up that statement.
How about actually answering my questions for once?
"For the reading impaired (ie, Rudolfo), one of the people there managed to smuggle a grenade with him. When he was unloaded he threw it. Subsequently, guards opened fire on the group that included the person throwing the grenade.
What part of this sequence of events is impossible or even improbable?"
"Oh, and I take it that now you have changed your position on Wisliceny, given that your "arguments" on why you wouldn't take him seriously have been answered and you subsequently mysteriously left the issue behind."
And I'm still waiting for an answer on my earlier comment that "you have yet to give a good reason why the testimony of Malagon cannot be trusted."
I'd say those questions are straightforward enough. When are you going to answer them? |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2010 : 08:02:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
I'm willing to examine the evidence and listen to valid arguments, do you have any of either?
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You're told that 100 or so men, presumably fully occupied with running an extermination camp, and without any previous experience or knowledge, and without any equipment (as it would take time to get) dug up, burned, and disposed of the (let's do the calculation - 6 lbs of bones per cremated body times 900,000 = 5,400,000 lbs =) 2700 tons of bones, not leaving a trace, in three months ......
and you want a valid argument
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| Edited by - Rudolfo on 04/17/2010 08:05:16 |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2010 : 08:42:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
Originally posted by Dave W.
I'm willing to examine the evidence and listen to valid arguments, do you have any of either?
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You're told that 100 or so men, presumably fully occupied with running an extermination camp, and without any previous experience or knowledge, and without any equipment (as it would take time to get) dug up, burned, and disposed of the (let's do the calculation - 6 lbs of bones per cremated body times 900,000 = 5,400,000 lbs =) 2700 tons of bones, not leaving a trace, in three months ......
and you want a valid argument
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Yes. I want more than "look, that number is so high!"
How much work does that mean per person per hour? Keep in mind that they would have had truck and wheelbarrows there, since that is just standard stuff you have in a camp.
But you're again running off in a new territory. Why don't you first answer the questions you still haven't answered before doing so?
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Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
| Edited by - tomk80 on 04/17/2010 08:45:02 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26024 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2010 : 09:52:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
You're told that 100 or so men, presumably fully occupied with running an extermination camp, and without any previous experience or knowledge, and without any equipment (as it would take time to get) dug up, burned, and disposed of the (let's do the calculation - 6 lbs of bones per cremated body times 900,000 = 5,400,000 lbs =) 2700 tons of bones, not leaving a trace, in three months ......
and you want a valid argument |
Yes. The argument you've presented is wrong on several levels:- There were more than 100 laborers.
- The staff were "fully occupied" with disposing of the bodies in the time period that you selected.
- Not all of them required "experience or knowledge" to do the job, only some supervisors.
- According to the "narrative," they borrowed at least one excavator from Treblinka II.
- They left plenty of traces, as found by the Poles in November, 1945.
Once again, you have refused to support the statements you've put forth, some of which obviously cannot be supported. The whole logical chain - the conclusion of which you cowardly refuse to state explicitly - is unsound. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2010 : 11:21:00 [Permalink]
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Rudolfo:
If he said anything about body disposal at Treblinka he lied about that. |
This statement should end the debate. Because there is no debate. Rudolfo has just admitted that no matter what evidence there is, he will interpret it to mean only what he wants it to mean. Here he has already interpreted evidence that he doesn't even know exists. That isn't confirmation bias anymore. That is Rudolfo coming right out and saying he doesn't care about the evidence. Not at all. He will interpret what there is and, more importantly, he will interpret what there isn't to fit his claim.
He is profoundly dishonest and probably not worth our time any longer. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/17/2010 : 12:54:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Rudolfo:
If he said anything about body disposal at Treblinka he lied about that. |
This statement should end the debate. Because there is no debate. Rudolfo has just admitted that no matter what evidence there is, he will interpret it to mean only what he wants it to mean. Here he has already interpreted evidence that he doesn't even know exists. That isn't confirmation bias anymore. That is Rudolfo coming right out and saying he doesn't care about the evidence. Not at all. He will interpret what there is and, more importantly, he will interpret what there isn't to fit his claim.
He is profoundly dishonest and probably not worth our time any longer.
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Eh, Rudofo's just another Jew-basher, mainly interesting for the crap he comes up with. I'm sure he'd be right at home with these guys.
Anyhow, I'm just riding along, poisoning his rhetorical well when the opportunity is presented. It is really all I can do, as he is ignoring me. That makes me very sad, y'know? Doubtless, my ego is severely damaged and will require extensive therapy -- I'll send Rudolfo and danthedork the shrink's bill.
Odd,is it not, that such a small population could cause the fear that the deniers have? The anti semites, from Hitler on down, are/were no more than a bunch of lying pussies, afraid that their minuscule scapegoat; their everlasting straw man, will be taken away.
Don't you just love it when the pigs squeal?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2010 : 13:32:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Eh, Rudofo's just another Jew-basher, mainly interesting for the crap he comes up with. I'm sure he'd be right at home with these guys.
Anyhow, I'm just riding along, poisoning his rhetorical well when the opportunity is presented. It is really all I can do, as he is ignoring me. That makes me very sad, y'know? Doubtless, my ego is severely damaged and will require extensive therapy -- I'll send Rudolfo and danthedork the shrink's bill.
Odd,is it not, that such a small population could cause the fear that the deniers have? The anti semites, from Hitler on down, are/were no more than a bunch of lying pussies, afraid that their minuscule scapegoat; their everlasting straw man, will be taken away.
Don't you just love it when the pigs squeal?
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Yeah. I wonder if Rudolfo realizes how many world wide conspiracy theories there are. There's The New World Order, The Illuminati, and permutations of both those theories as well as a lot of overlap. Hell, Rudolfo has to get in line to push his particular brand of crap. On the nasty scale, along with racial bigotry or the kind of religious hatreds that has lead to several attempted genocides, some more successful than others, his brand of craziness rates high on the scale. The good news is that he and his friends are now on the outside and mostly considered to be hateful cranks and pinheads by most westerners.
They do need to be watched, however. They are more likely than most conspiracy theorists to commit hate crimes...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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podcat
Skeptic Friend
435 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2010 : 14:06:15 [Permalink]
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Don't forget the current climate, with some tea partiers, and the 15th anniversary of the Oklahoma City bombing, which fell on the same date as the last day of the Branch Davidian tragedy in Waco, Texas.
They *do* need to be watched. Fortunately, the Southern Poverty Law Center is one of the groups watching them.
http://www.splcenter.org/ |
“In a modern...society, everybody has the absolute right to believe whatever they damn well please, but they don't have the same right to be taken seriously”.
-Barry Williams, co-founder, Australian Skeptics |
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2010 : 05:42:01 [Permalink]
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Well, let's recap ...
The original challenge was to prove that the mass graves at the Reinhard camp are real, starts with the various 'identified' mass graves at these camps, which Gerdes claims are hoaxes.
Gerdes can get an argument on this, from one Roberto Muelenkamp(sp?), but, when it's all said and done, there are no bodies in the mass graves.
And, it's moot as it is claimed that the Nazis, after discovering real mass graves created by NKVD slaughters at Katyn and Vinnitsa decided to hide their own mass graves. The Nazis invited an international team of forensics experts to excavate the mass graves at Vinnits and Katyn. Bodies were excavated, autopises performed, identifications made where possible. This was DURING WW II. Contrast that with the dodgy 'investigations' of the graves at the Reihnard camps.
So, focusing on Treblinka, we have the claimed digging up and burning of 900,000 bodies, and the disposal of 2700 tons of bones, wrapped up in 3 months. The 'evidence' is that three people said that it happened, Wisliceny, Wiernik, and Malagon. 
Now, anyone is free to believe a preposterous story based on the very flimsy testimony of three witnesses, all co-conspirators if you believe the hoax. In this case, no one but a complete fool would really believe this nonsense, but, it's impossible for me to tell if the posters on this board are fools, true believers, or dishonest hoaxers. |
| Edited by - Rudolfo on 04/19/2010 05:53:13 |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2010 : 06:02:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
Well, let's recap ...
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Why don't you just answer the questions people asked you? Why are you avoiding doing that yet again? One might get the idea (imagine that) that you really don't have any arguments. Otherwise you'd man up and actually answer the questions put to you. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26024 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2010 : 06:13:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
The 'evidence' is that three people said that it happened, Wisliceny, Wiernik, and Malagon.
Now, anyone is free to believe a preposterous story based on the very flimsy testimony of three witnesses... |
Rule 4. Nobody but you is saying that those three witnesses are the only testimony, or even the only evidence.| ...all co-conspirators if you believe the hoax. |
Rule 4. Assumes its conclusions, without providing evidence.| In this case, no one but a complete fool would really believe this nonsense, but, it's impossible for me to tell if the posters on this board are fools, true believers, or dishonest hoaxers. |
Rule 1. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2010 : 06:40:12 [Permalink]
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| Also, Malagon never made any statements regarding the disposal of the mass graves. Another indication that Rudolfo has no idea what he is talking about. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2010 : 07:10:54 [Permalink]
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The mass graves at Treblinka were dug up in 1943, giving the poor, misunderstood Nazis plenty of time to get the fires a'roarn' & the bones a'burnin'.
What with the manpower, half starved as it was, available to them as well as transport, the work involved was but a trifle.
I might have posted this link before. If I haven't, then I should have, and here it is.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 04/19/2010 07:13:13 |
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2010 : 07:19:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Rudolfo
The 'evidence' is that three people said that it happened, Wisliceny, Wiernik, and Malagon.
Now, anyone is free to believe a preposterous story based on the very flimsy testimony of three witnesses... |
Rule 4. Nobody but you is saying that those three witnesses are the only testimony, or even the only evidence.
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 Please stop misusing the Rules. If you don't understand them, don't use them.
I'll explain a little more .... Rule 4 is aggressive idiocy ... like tomko80 always writing 'answer the question' after it's been asked and answered 10 times. THAT is aggressive stupidity. See? Just because you disagree with something, or even that something is wrong, doesn't make it aggressive stupidity. However, it would become aggressive stupidity if repeated over and over. Repetition is a good indicator for aggressive stupidity. Without it, the statement has to be pretty stupid, misleading, and obviously incorrect.
Now, I did make the assumption that you would have named other witnesses that had any shred of credibility. And, I note that the 'evidence' you provided was absurd, i.e. the ashes scattered on the ground 3 years after the camps was closed and the buildings razed/dismantled, completely unquantified, and after a bombing attack on the area.
And, I'm a little mystified about the witnesses you did provide. Wisliceny signed a statement written in English which he in all likelihood did not read, and did not testify about it, and Malagon didn't say a word on the subject(?), so, why was he injected into the argument
But, I'm always happy to learn new information, so if you have other witnesses let's have em, or any evidence whatever, let's see it. |
| Edited by - Rudolfo on 04/19/2010 08:04:48 |
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2010 : 07:47:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
like tomko80 always writing 'answer the question' after it's been asked and answered 10 times. |
When? Where? Either link to it and copy and paste it.
I'll be waiting... 
You are a spineless coward. You haven't answered ANY of my simple questions. Likewise, you have NOT answered any of tomk80's questions either You snivel in silence like a putz. 
| THAT is aggressive stupidity.... blah blah blah |
When you start name-calling, you've lost the argument. Do you know what I call "aggressive stupidity"? Your inability to do proper quoting. As well as your cowardice in answering simple questions.
Hey! Guess what? The Holocaust happened and NO ONE but cellar-dwelling losers believes otherwise.
Your efforts haven't changed a thing. Too bad |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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A literal Jewish conspiracy
