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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 03/27/2010 : 08:54:44 [Permalink]
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The Beast of Belsen, study of a sociopath.
| Josef Kramer (November 10, 1906 – December 13, 1945) was the Commandant of the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp. Dubbed "The Beast of Belsen" by camp inmates; he was a notorious Nazi war criminal, directly responsible for the deaths of thousands of people. He was convicted of war crimes and hanged in Hameln prison by noted British executioner Albert Pierrepoint after World War II. |
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 09:07:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
Forgive me for not googling it up because I've forgotten the name, but one of the pics of smiling children has a plump lady right in the center of the pic, and I showed the pic on another debate and one of the posters countered well of course that's the well known 'Nurse Abramowitz' who was subsequently given an award in Israel, and a link was provided. I didn't save it. |
Your evidence that the children were Jewish is that a nurse who is allegedly in the photo was Jewish, and that the dog ate your homework?Yes, that's the same photo as the one you previously linked to at CODOH (which doesn't mention any nurse).| Now, I have a question for you. Do you know the name of the nurse ? |
Well, it's certainly not Irena Sendler. I don't know the name of every nurse involved with the Holocaust, and I see no evidence that anyone in the photo is a nurse. Your faulty memories of what anonymous posters on an anonymous Internet debate told you aren't any help in identifying anyone.
However, the new site that you linked to identifies the photo as being of "Luba Tryszynska with some of the diamond children." Interestingly, another survivor, Coby Lubliner, writes:When Anne Frank and her sister Margot were dying in the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp in March of 1945, there was a sizable group of Jewish children from Amsterdam - more than fifty - living in a special compound in which they were adequately fed and received a modicum of medical care while the rest of the camp's population was deliberately starved and ravaged by disease. This facility, housed in a bungalow known as the Kinderbaracke (children's barrack), was apparently run by the Nazis as a showplace for the International Red Cross. That would explain why the kids look healthy.
Tryszynska wasn't a nurse, and wasn't given any awards by Israel (it was Holland).
But it does seem that they were, in fact, Jewish kids. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 09:14:32 [Permalink]
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Rudolfo:
Forgive me for not googling it up because I've forgotten the name, but one of the pics of smiling children has a plump lady right in the center of the pic, and I showed the pic on another debate and one of the posters countered well of course that's the well known 'Nurse Abramowitz' who was subsequently given an award in Israel, and a link was provided. I didn't save it. I'll find that photo ... |
Let’s review, shall we? This meaning of the picture has moved from belief (back when Rudolfo was making at least some attempt to present it honestly) to fact, and is now supported by an unknown poster and a missing link. Does that pretty much cover it?
Rudolfo:
So, the fact that it is an obvious fake, and is universally accepted by the holocaust promoters, shows that they are, sad to say, degenerate liars. |
You have not demonstrated that the photo in question is a fake. We have agreed with you that what it portrays is not sufficient to be called evidence. But that doesn’t mean that what the picture is said to portray is not exactly what it does portray. The problem is we just don’t know enough about the circumstances of the picture to make a knowledgeable judgment about it. And neither do you.
Same shit, new day…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 09:31:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
However, the new site that you linked to identifies the photo as being of "Luba Tryszynska with some of the diamond children." Interestingly, another survivor, Coby Lubliner, writes:When Anne Frank and her sister Margot were dying in the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp in March of 1945, there was a sizable group of Jewish children from Amsterdam - more than fifty - living in a special compound in which they were adequately fed and received a modicum of medical care while the rest of the camp's population was deliberately starved and ravaged by disease. This facility, housed in a bungalow known as the Kinderbaracke (children's barrack), was apparently run by the Nazis as a showplace for the International Red Cross. That would explain why the kids look healthy.
Tryszynska wasn't a nurse, and wasn't given any awards by Israel (it was Holland).
But it does seem that they were, in fact, Jewish kids.
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Which goes back to what I said long ago in this thread. It doesn't matter if the kids were Jewish or not. All that matters is what their actual circumstance was.
Good work! |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 10:25:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
*evidence - I understand that Dave W. and Kil distinguish between the holocaust narrative itself and 'evidence' for the holocaust narrative. Here is my definitive response to that idiocy - LOL. |
So your only answer to our argument is to ridicule it. Since that is what you were complaining about us doing in dantheman's thread, that makes you nothing less than a hypocrite.
And sadly (for you, Rudolfo), if you can't distinguish between a narrative and the evidence that supports that narrative, then you must think that the stories in the Bible are evidence that those same stories are true. Or that the movie The Right Stuff is evidence that Yeager was the first man to break the sound barrier. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 17:18:41 [Permalink]
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[But it does seem that they were, in fact, Jewish kids.]
That's what I said. |
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 17:25:07 [Permalink]
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[You have not demonstrated that the photo in question is a fake. We have agreed with you that what it portrays is not sufficient to be called evidence. But that doesn’t mean that what the picture is said to portray is not exactly what it does portray. The problem is we just don’t know enough about the circumstances of the picture to make a knowledgeable judgment about it. And neither do you.]
Sad to say, you have no idea of what you are talking about. And neither do I. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 19:06:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
That's what I said. |
Yes, and then I had to ask the same question I-don't-know-how-many times before you coughed up a seriously lame response, and I chose to do your homework for you. Had I not dug up the facts, you'd still think the woman was a nurse, and that the children should have looked sickly.
You have demonstrated, beyond any doubt, that your commitment to finding out what truth can still be discovered about the Holocaust is fatally lacking, and you have demanded your right to engage in logical fallacies like strawmen, confirmation bias, poisoning the well, non-sequitor and red herring, and you have also refused to engage many points on their merits, instead resorting to ridicule alone. And in that fashion, you have shot your claims to skepticism (about anything) in the head, for all to see.
In all likelihood, those claims were dead-on-arrival anyway, but you've made sure to plug 'em a few more times, point-blank, for good measure, just in the past couple of days. My prediction (in our emails before you started this thread) that you wouldn't be able to debate in good faith was spot-on.
So unless you've got something new to discuss, I think we're done here, too. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2010 : 04:32:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Rudolfo
That's what I said. |
Yes, and then I had to ask the same question I-don't-know-how-many times before you coughed up a seriously lame response, and I chose to do your homework for you. Had I not dug up the facts, you'd still think the woman was a nurse, and that the children should have looked sickly.
You have demonstrated, beyond any doubt, that your commitment to finding out what truth can still be discovered about the Holocaust is fatally lacking, and you have demanded your right to engage in logical fallacies like strawmen, confirmation bias, poisoning the well, non-sequitor and red herring, and you have also refused to engage many points on their merits, instead resorting to ridicule alone. And in that fashion, you have shot your claims to skepticism (about anything) in the head, for all to see.
In all likelihood, those claims were dead-on-arrival anyway, but you've made sure to plug 'em a few more times, point-blank, for good measure, just in the past couple of days. My prediction (in our emails before you started this thread) that you wouldn't be able to debate in good faith was spot-on.
So unless you've got something new to discuss, I think we're done here, too.
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No,no,no, not done yet! We haven't looked at the architect of it; the conductor of the Auschwitz Symphony, as it were.
Adolf Eichmann is labeled as the man who masterminded the actual organisation of the Holocaust. Adolf Eichmann was a SS officer who planned with meticulous detail the sending of Jews and other groups to death camps such as Auschwitz-Birkenau, Treblinka and Sobibor. Such work was to earn Eichmann the title 'Chief Executioner of the Third Reich'.
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It's a fascinating story. While Eichmann never actually shoved any Jews into the gas chambers, as far as is known, he was a very much a higher-up in the murderous, Nazi circle-jerk. Not too shabby for a former Vacuum Oil peddler, eh.
Adolf Eichmann was born on March 19th, 1906 in Solingen. His father was a reasonably successful businessman who moved the family to Linz in Austria in 1914. After serving in the Austrian army in World War One, Eichmann's father moved the family back to Germany in 1920.
After dropping out of college in 1925, Eichmann worked as a travelling salesman for the Vacuum Oil Company. Such work brought him back, once again, to Germany in 1930. While in Germany he joined the 'Wandervogel' group - a group that was anti-Semite in its views but seems to have tolerated Jews to be in the movement. In 1932, aged 26, Eichmann moved back to Austria where he joined the Austrian Nazi Party.
In April 1932, Eichmann joined the SS Division of the Austrian Nazi Party. In November of the same year he became a full SS member and was appointed as a SS-Mann. For about one year, Eichmann served in Salzburg.
When Hitler came to power in January 1933, Eichmann returned to Germany and applied to join the German SS full time. His application was accepted and in November 1933, Eichmann was appointed to the administrative staff at Dachau Concentration Camp, just outside of Munich.
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And became the head thief, as well.
| After working in Austria after the Anschluss in 1938, Eichmann was selected by senior SS officers to create the Central Office for Jewish Administration in Austria, which was an organisation that was introduced to expel/deport Jews from Austria after they had left their property and wealth to the Third Reich. Once again, Eichmann demonstrated his organisational skills. It was at this time that Eichmann made a study of Judaism which led to him formulating extreme anti-Semite beliefs. |
There was no where to go but up for this ambitious, young monster. He had the brains and talent to complete the job and was willing to work hard at it. He also knew when it was time to bail. After a bit of dithering during which he was captured by the Allies and released as a simple soldier, he split for South America.
| In 1947, Eichmann left Europe as 'Ricardo Clement' and flew to Buenos Aires in Argentina. He spent a number of years doing various jobs ranging from water engineer to rabbit farmer. |
His story has a happy enough ending though. The Mossad caught up with the erstwhile Vacuum Oil pimp, laid the snatch him, and Israel put him on trial for crimes against humanity and all-around scumbaggage.
| Eichmann's trial started on February 11th, 1961. As well as crimes against humanity, Eichmann was charged with crimes against the Jewish people. The trial was broadcast live throughout the world. Eichmann's defence was that he had only been following orders from a higher authority. The three judges at the trial did not accept this and he was found guilty on all charges. On December 15th, 1961, Eichmann was sentenced to death and he was hanged a few minutes after midnight on June 1st, 1962. His body was cremated and his ashes were scattered at sea. |
And at that point, we can charge the Israelis with pollution. They should have just dumped his carcass in the city landfill, as was done with executed criminals back in Biblical times, rather than contaminate the oceans with dead, burnt white-trash.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 03/28/2010 04:33:47 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2010 : 06:07:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
[But it does seem that they were, in fact, Jewish kids.]
That's what I said.
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With a skeptical audience, you should have known that your say-so isn't good enough. You should have presented corroborating evidence to back it up. Otherwise, why shouldn't we dismiss your claim? We had no means to verify the truth-value of your claim.
Your unwillingness to back up that statement is what caused us to doubt your claim. You have yourself to blame for that.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2010 : 07:18:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
[But it does seem that they were, in fact, Jewish kids.]
That's what I said.
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Even a blind hen sometimes finds a grain of corn... |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2010 : 08:49:19 [Permalink]
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But what then, of the staff at Auschwitz?
Well, they considered it much better duty than the Russian Front....
By 1943 Auschwitz had grown significantly and now had multiple subcamps, many of which provided slave labor for armaments factories and other industries, eventually generating millions of Reichsmarks for Nazi Germany. In March new gas chambers and crematoria opened at Auschwitz-Birkenau, dramatically increasing the camp’s killing capacity.
– Libusa Breder, Jewish prisoner, Auschwitz
A few hundred yards from Birkenau’s gas chambers and crematoria was an area of the camp the inmates called "Canada." It was so named because Canada was thought to be a country of great riches. Inmates’ possessions were taken from them upon arrival and brought there. The items were sorted and sent back to Germany, although some were stolen by SS guards.
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"There was no God in Auschwitz. There were such horrible conditions that God decided not to go there."
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2010 : 21:47:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
I understand that Dave W. and Kil distinguish between the holocaust narrative itself and 'evidence' for the holocaust narrative. Here is my definitive response to that idiocy - LOL. |
I just finished watching the 2005 Anthony Hopkins film, The World's Fastest Indian. It's a pretty good film, about New Zealander Burt Munro's quest to get his highly modified motorcycle officially timed at the Bonneville Salt Flats, but judging from his Wikipedia entry, the movie is almost entirely false.
Of course, even though the movie is probably intentionally misleading about the events in Munro's life, dispensing with reality to tell a good story, that doesn't change the fact that Burt Munro's 1967 land speed record for streamlined motorcycles under 1000cc still stands. The fact that the two replicas that have been made of the "Munro Special" aren't quite the same as the original doesn't change the fact that the man was superfast on a 40-something year-old bike.
So the movie is wrong and the replicas of the bike are inaccurate. The point to the movie is, of course, to make a hero out of Burt Munro and spread his story. That Munro had more human failings, and wasn't nearly as naive about the speed of his bike(s!), as portrayed in the movie doesn't change the fact that he built an awesomely fast machine.
The movie isn't evidence of events in Burt Munro's life, but is instead a dramatization of the real events. The hard evidence of Munro's accomplishments exists independently of, and elsewhere from, that movie. And it doesn't matter if the reality is less dramatic than the movie, because the movie isn't trying to "prove" anything.
Perhaps, Rudolfo, you can see the parallels between The World's Fastest Indian and the "unaware" photo. It doesn't matter if the people in the photo were going to a gas chamber or boarding the RMS Queen Elizabeth for an all-expenses-paid tour of Jamaica. The facts of the Holocaust exist independently of that photo, and the truth or falsity of that photo has no effect whatsoever on those facts.
Suggesting that if the photo is a lie then so is the whole "Holocaust narrative" is like saying that because The World's Fastest Indian takes a few liberties with the truth, then Burt Munro must not have set any land speed records. A total logical failure. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 03:54:05 [Permalink]
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There is one man that no study of the Holocaust should ignore, yet we rarely hear of him. In death, as in life, he seems to lurk like a wraith, ever behind the scenes; ever less than visible; ever grasping power and influence. Indeed, no one is really sure of how he died, although there are no shortages of hypothesis. Let us, with Rudolf's generous permission (or without it, whatever), grok the story of Martin Bormann, a man so cloaked in darkness that the Jewish prisoners didn't even have nickname for him. Comes to that, most probably didn't even know of his existence in spite of the influence he had on their lives and indeed, the lives of most Europeans.
Interestingly enough, he hated Christianity; a quite rare bird in the circling, Nazi kettle. However, it is said that Hitler planned to break with the Church after the war was over, anyway. He was a confirmed Catholic, but still there was no way that he would share power with priests.
Martin Bormann was born in Halberstadt on 17 June 1900.
The son of a former Prussian regimental sergeant-major who later became a post-office employee, Bormann dropped out of school to work on a farming estate in Mecklenburg. After serving briefly as a cannoneer in a field artillery regiment at the end of World War I, Bormann subsequently joined the rightist Rossbach Freikorps in Mecklenburg and was connected with the so-called 'Feme' murders.
In March 1924 he was sentenced to one year's imprisonment as an accomplice of Rudolf Höss in the brutal, vengeance murder of Walther Kadow (his former teacher at elementary school), who had supposedly betrayed the proto-Nazi martyr Leo Schlageter to the French occupation authorities in the Ruhr.
After his release he entered the NSDAP, becoming its regional press officer in Thuringia and then business manager in 1928. From 1928 to 1930 he was attached to the SA Supreme Command and in October 1933 he became a Reichsleiter of the NSDAP. A month later he was elected as a Nazi delegate to the Reichstag. From July 1933 until 1941 Bormann was the Chief of Cabinet in the Office of the Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess , acting as his personal secretary and right-hand man.
During this period, the 'model secretary', diligent, adaptable and efficient, began his silent, imperceptible rise to the centre of the power apparatus, slowly acquiring master of the bureaucratic mechanism and Hitler's personal trust. He developed and administered the Adolf Hitler Endowment Fund of German industry, a huge fund of 'voluntary' contributions by successful business entrepreneurs to the Fuhrer, which Bormann then reallocated as gifts to almost all the top Party functionaries.
In addition to administering Hitler's personal finances, buying the Berghof at Berchtesgaden and running it as well as the whole complex of properties on the Obersalzberg, Bormann acquired the power to control the living standards of Gauleiters and Reichsleiters, not to speak of members of the Fuhrer's intimate circle. Bormann's brutality, coarseness, lack of culture and his apparent insignificance led the Nazi Old Guard to underestimate his silent persistence and ability to make himself indispensable. Rudolf Hess's flight to Britain opened the way for the 'Brown Eminence' to step into his shoes on 12 May 1941 as head of the Parteikanzlei and to gather the reins of the Party into his own hands and steadily undermine all his rivals for power. Until the end of the war, the short, squat Bormann, working in the anonymity of his seemingly unimportant office, proved himself a master of intrigue, manipulation and political in-fighting. Always the 'narrow Party man' and a fierce guardian of Nazi orthodoxy (he was an arch-fanatic when it came to racial policy, anti-semitism and the Kirchenkampf [war between the churches]), Bormann strengthened the position of the Party against the Wehrmacht and the SS, and increased his grip on domestic policy.
Increasingly he controlled all questions concerning the security of the regime, acts of legislation, appointments and promotions, especially if they concerned Party personnel. He also established espionage in the army, getting younger officers promoted to spy on the political attitudes of their colleagues. He reopened the fight against the Christian churches, declaring in a confidential memo to Gauleiters in 1942 that their power 'must absolutely and finally be broken'. Nazism, based as it was on a 'scientific' world-view, was completely incompatible with Christianity whose influence was regarded by Bormann as a serious obstacle to totalitarian rule. The sharpest anti-cleric in the Nazi leadership (he collected all the files of cases against the clergy that he could lay his hands on), Bormann was the driving force of the Kirchenkampf, which Hitler for tactical reasons had wished to postpone until after the war.
Bormann was invariably the advocate of extremely harsh, radical measures when it came to the treatment of Jews, of the conquered eastern peoples or prisoners of war. He signed the decree of 9 October 1942 prescribing that 'the permanent elimination of the Jews from the territories of Greater Germany can no longer be carried out by emigration but by the use of ruthless force in the special camps of the East'. A further decree, signed by Bormann on 1 July 1943, gave Adolf Eichmann absolute powers over Jews, who now came under the exclusive jurisdiction of the Gestapo. |
Swell fellow, eh? Read on; he'll get even more sweller.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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What is the physical evidence for the holocaust?
