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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2010 : 15:06:31 [Permalink]
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[I think we should keep on discussing your "heroic" lies. Oh, wait! By your definition, a lot of what you've said has been degenerate lies about us.]
As usual, you misinterpret my post. I can't tell a degenerate lie about you, I can only tell a degenerate lie about myself. The degenerate lies of the holocaust are lies of victimization. Exaggerating the strength of ones adversaries and portraying oneself as a helpless victim. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 03/26/2010 : 15:28:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
As usual, you misinterpret my post. I can't tell a degenerate lie about you, I can only tell a degenerate lie about myself. The degenerate lies of the holocaust are lies of victimization. Exaggerating the strength of ones adversaries and portraying oneself as a helpless victim. |
I see. Then your lies are back to being heroic ones.
How do you know that the smiling, healthy children were Jewish? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 03/26/2010 : 17:59:58 [Permalink]
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Why are we arguing about a stupid picture? The picture, real or faked, is not important. The SS method of unloading prisoners from the trains, sorting them into those who could be worked to death and those, including mothers and children, who could not and sending them off to the chambers that same day is well documented in many quarters, much of it by the Nazis themselves. All you have to do is look.
For example, you might learn that Dr. Joseph Mengele did much if not most of the selecting.
I and others here have shown you much of this documentation, so I don't think it is necessary to do any more of the research that you should have done, but didn't, before subscribing to a screwball "theory."
So, back to topic: do you think that the official testimony of Rudolf Hoess at his trial was the truth, or something hoked up by the "government?"
Please answer concisely and provide reference -- photographs will not be necessary.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 03/26/2010 18:00:51 |
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 04:21:12 [Permalink]
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[How do you know that the smiling, healthy children were Jewish?]
Forgive me for not googling it up because I've forgotten the name, but one of the pics of smiling children has a plump lady right in the center of the pic, and I showed the pic on another debate and one of the posters countered well of course that's the well known 'Nurse Abramowitz' who was subsequently given an award in Israel, and a link was provided. I didn't save it. I'll find that photo ...
http://www.bergenbelsen.co.uk/images/Content/Photos/Database/Survivors/Survivor_08_01.jpg
Now, I have a question for you. Do you know the name of the nurse ? |
| Edited by - Rudolfo on 03/27/2010 05:36:01 |
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 04:29:47 [Permalink]
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[Why are we arguing about a stupid picture? The picture, real or faked, is not important.]
The picture is important. Here is why - it is representative of the 'evidence' for the holocaust. That is, it is an obvious lie.
Now, of course, it is only one piece of evidence*. So, you can say it's not important because it's just one piece of fake evidence. But even that is wrong. Because, it is accepted by all the people promoting the holocaust narrative. So, the fact that it is an obvious fake, and is universally accepted by the holocaust promoters, shows that they are, sad to say, degenerate liars. This one piece of obvious fake evidence, which is widely published and appears in the important book 'Eyewitness Auschwitz - Three Years in the Gas Chambers', shows that the whole narrative is a lie and the persons promoting it are liars.
And, of course, the point also is that EVERY piece of evidence of the holocaust is similarly fake. I can only demonstrate that one piece at a time. (So, I thought I'd start with an easy one. LOL)
[So, back to topic: do you think that the official testimony of Rudolf Hoess at his trial was the truth, or something hoked up by the "government?"]
Hoess's testimony is as fake as the picture. Did you know that he was tortured before giving his statement? Did you know that the statement he signed was written in English, and they had to translate it for the Nuremberg trial? Did you know that he was not tried at Nuremberg but appeared as a defense witness ? Can you believe the absurdity of that? But .... this is all for the conspiracy thread.
*evidence - I understand that Dave W. and Kil distinguish between the holocaust narrative itself and 'evidence' for the holocaust narrative. Here is my definitive response to that idiocy - LOL. |
| Edited by - Rudolfo on 03/27/2010 04:35:13 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 04:50:54 [Permalink]
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Sonderkommando:
Sonderkommandos were work units of German Nazi death camp prisoners who aided with the killing process during The Holocaust. The death-camp Sonderkommando consisted almost entirely of Jews, and should not be confused with the SS-Sonderkommandos which were ad hoc units formed from various SS offices between 1938 through 1945.
The term itself in German means "special unit", and was part of the vague and euphemistic language which the Nazis used to refer to aspects of the Final Solution (cf. Einsatzgruppen).
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Hungarian Jews undergo a "Selection" on the ramp at Auschwitz, May 1944. The man (center) in the striped uniform is part of the Sonderkommando "Kanada" responsible for collecting valuables from the victims of the Nazis.
But of course, this picture is probably a fake. How do we know that there were any Jews there?
[i"Sonderkommando members did not participate directly in killing; that responsibility was reserved for the guards, while the Sonderkommandos' primary responsibility was disposing of the corpses. They were forced into the position; in most cases they were inducted immediately upon arrival at the camp, and were not given any advance notice of the tasks they would have to perform. They had no way to refuse or resign other than by committing suicide. Because the Germans needed the Sonderkommandos to remain physically able, they were granted moderately less disastrous living conditions than other inmates: they slept in their own barracks, which more than any other in the camp resembled normal human dwellings; they were allowed to keep and use various goods such as food, medicines and cigarettes brought by those who were sent to the gas chambers; and, unlike ordinary inmates, they were not subject to arbitrary, random killing by guards. (Dr. Miklos Nyiszli noted with irony the fact that the medicines arriving were labeled in various languages because Jewish transports were coming from every part of Europe.) As a result, Sonderkommando members tended to survive longer than other inmates of the death camps—but very few survived the war."[/i]
A surviving Sonderkommando
[i]Henryk Mandelbaum and an interpreter talk on the ruins of crematoria at Auschwitz II. He was a member of the Auschwitz II Sonderkommandos at the time of the revolt by the Sonderkommandos. He told of how his unit, who did not revolt, were punished by having every third member of the group executed as a lesson.[/i]
In the collection at Yad Vashem, the Holocaust museum in Jerusalem, Israel, there are notes from members of the Sonderkommando. The following note was found buried in the Auschwitz crematoria written by Zalmen Gradowski, a member of the Sonderkommando and killed in the Sonderkommando Revolt in October 1944:
"Dear finder of these notes, I have one request of you, which is, in fact, the practical objective for my writing... that my days of Hell, that my hopeless tomorrow will find a purpose in the future. I am transmitting only a part of what happened in the Birkenau-Auschwitz Hell. You will realize what reality looked like... From all this you will have a picture of how our people perished."
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But of course, it never happened, did it Rudolpho?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 05:12:29 [Permalink]
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It is interesting to note that Hoess was hanged at Auschwitz, fittingly, I might add.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 05:21:53 [Permalink]
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[But of course, this picture is probably a fake. How do we know that there were any Jews there?]
The picture is not a fake. But, is not evidence of the holocaust.
There are two narratives, the holocaust narrative, if you deviate from it you will be arrested in many countries in Europe and in Canada and Australia. Amazing is it not? In the holocaust narrative the Jews are taken to the camps, selected, and gassed.
In the other narrative, the revisionist narrative, the Jews are taken to the camps, and housed or shipped east. (opinion - in the early stages, 42, 43, the Nazis thought they could ship the Jews to Russia (see the Wannsee minutes for documentation), but the war did not go as planned, so they found themselves stuck with the Jews in the camps. There were, as is now known, on the order or 20,000 camps ! And of course, much of this is documented, but the info is kept secret at Bad Arolsen).
Here's the point, both narratives agree that the Jews were brought to the camps and selected. At Auscwitz there was a women's camp. There was even a women's orchestra. So, obviously, women were selected for that camp. So, the photo is consistent with both narratives. To be evidence for the holocaust, the evidence has to support the holocaust narrative while discrediting the revisionist narrative.
The women's camp, and the women's orchestra, directly contradict the holocaust narrative, so, in the minds of the 'skeptics' on this forum, they did not happen? |
| Edited by - Rudolfo on 03/27/2010 05:28:57 |
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 05:42:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
I've seen the posts from Dave W. and Kil, and to my mind they are pure idiocy. Trying to construct some argument by saying the photos are not 'evidence' is ..... beyond comment.
I'd like to hear what the other posters have say.
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I think you're doing a poor job of presenting your case.
In order to have a meaningful debate, there are a few requirements: common definitions of words used, and rules how to construct a valid argument.
For skeptics, the rules are the standard (classical) logical rules: When constructing a syllogism, the premises need to be valid statement of fact, and supported by either evidence, logic, or mathematics.
Arguments need to be robust in order to make it stick. You have failed in that regard by back-pedalling and re-defining you argument. First you made a statement of belief, then redefine it as a statement of fact. You have during the course of this thread changed the scope of your statements. You have misrepresented your evidence (words from Van Pelt) and you have made unsupported conclusions from the video you have submitted.
You have presented "facts" about evidence you have submitted to the thread, but you have failed to back up the veracity of these facts.
You have failed to acknowledge statements from your own sources, when brought up, which contradict you opinion about the holocaust. (the large fields with ash and bones outside the camp) You have also showed that you have a double-standard as to what you accept as evidence.
I think Kil, Dave, Fripp, and filthy have all presented valid critisism to your point of view, but like and insolent child you loudly proclaim that you will not listen (when they don't tell you what you want to hear). That's just childish.
Fripp for example did answer your question about the pictures of people walking into the gas chamber, but as far as I have followed the thread, you have yet to address his answer.
On the other hand, you've provided plenty of insults.
Both Kil and Dave have thick skins and it runs off them like water off the back of a goose. But in my eyes, your insults don't affect the argument at hand. To my eyes, they just make you look like a prick, who don't like being on the losing side.
To other people who might be reading this thread, who don't have the ability to dispassionately and rationally examine the arguments, to them, you are definitely and sorely loosing the argument.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 05:43:06 [Permalink]
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What the hell does an executed Confederate soldier, however controversial, have to do with the Holocaust?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 06:08:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
What the hell does an executed Confederate soldier, however controversial, have to do with the Holocaust?
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That, dear readers, is a perfect example of the logical fallacy called Red Herring.
It's a FAILed argument, unless Rudolfo can present a clear and logical connection between both.
Also, Höss was hardly innocent. He himself testified, positively affirming, there were orders to exterminate Jews. FAIL again.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 06:53:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by filthy
What the hell does an executed Confederate soldier, however controversial, have to do with the Holocaust?
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That, dear readers, is a perfect example of the logical fallacy called Red Herring.
It's a FAILed argument, unless Rudolfo can present a clear and logical connection between both.
Also, Höss was hardly innocent. He himself testified, positively affirming, there were orders to exterminate Jews. FAIL again.
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Hm, yes. We could add Non Sequitur to that as well. And due to refusing to learn to quote and hot-link, he's fucked up the format of every Page he's been on. 
As an aside, I spent some of my childhood in Manchester, GA, not all that far from Andersonville.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 07:21:14 [Permalink]
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The memoirs of Rudolf Hoess
by
John C. Zimmerman
Associate Professor
University of Nevada, Las Vegas
One of the issues that has arisen in connection with the Holocaust is the reliability of eyewitness testimony. Holocaust deniers are forever attacking eyewitnesses as liars or people prone to exaggeration. There can be no doubt that not all eyewitness testimony is reliable. Also, it is true that some witnesses lie or exaggerate.
The main problem with such testimony, however, is that there will often be inconsistencies with regard to details. This is not unusual. Any prosecuting attorney knows that there are differences in the way witnesses view an event. But even though witnesses may differ as to the details of an event, they are seldom wrong as to the event itself. Thus, witnesses to the number of people who could be gassed in the gas chamber of Crematorium I at Auschwitz gave such varying amounts as 600, 700, 900, and 1000. 1 Holocaust deniers exploit the differences in this type of testimony by claiming that if there are differences as to the number of people who could be gassed, then there must be doubt as to whether the event occurred.
Holocaust historians have not avoided the issue of the reliability of such testimony. The late Holocaust historian Lucy Dawidowicz wrote:
Many thousands of oral histories by survivors recounting their experiences exist in countries and archives around the world. Their quality and usefulness vary significantly according to the informant's memory, grasp of events, insights and of course accuracy. The longer the time lapsed [between the event and the testimony] the less likely the informant has retained freshness of recollection. The transcribed testimonies I have examined have been full of errors in dates, names of participants, and places, and there are evident misunderstandings of the events themselves. To the unwary researcher some of the accounts can be more hazard than help. 2
Holocaust denier Mark Weber misquoted a report that the archives director for Holocaust testimony in Israel stated that over one half of the 20,000 testimonies in the possession of the archives are unreliable. 3 The actual article quoted the director as saying that many testimonies, not most, were inaccuarate. 4 Weber did not reveal that the director angrily denied making the statement attributed to him. Schmuel Krakowski, the director, wrote: "I said that there are some - fortunately very few - testimonies, which proved to be inaccurate." 5
How then can the reliability of such testimony be evaluated? One method is to compare it to other testimony on the subject. Is the testimony consistent overall when compared to other testimony on the same event? Another method is to compare the testimony to other corroborative evidence. Is there some documentary evidence that supports the testimony? For example, Miklos Nyiszli was a Jewish doctor who was part of the Hungarian transports deported to Auschwitz from May to July 1944. His memoirs were written in March 1946 and published in Budapest in 1947. A copy of the original Hungarian is at the UCLA main library. They were translated into English in 1960. Nyiszli served as a prisoner doctor to the notorious Joseph Mengele. He witnessed the bodies of dead gassing victims and the burnings of bodies in the Crematoriums. He also witnessed the burning pits dug by the Auschwitz authorities to dispose of the murdered victims. How can his testimony be evaluated? His testimony can be classified as victim testimony, the essentials of which have been verified by other victims. Perpetrators have also verified the essential aspects of his testimony. 6 But there is other evidence by which the veracity of his testimony can be evaluated. Nyiszli wrote that while he was at Auschwitz there were 860 special commando prisoners assigned to the four crematoriums to dispose of the murdered victims. 7 This is a very large number and is consistent with what the camp authorities would need to dispose of victims who were being murdered en masse. A camp labor deployment list dated August 29, 1944 shows 874 special workers assigned to the four crematoria. They are evenly divided among those installations and divided again into day and night shifts. 8 Thus, Nyiszli is a very credible witness based on this independent corroboration.
Rudolf Höss
Rudolf Höss was the commandant at Auschwitz for most of its existence. His memoirs show that he occupied a unique position in the history of the Nazi implementation of the Final Solution of the Jewish Question. 9 He was an intermediary between those who ordered the murder of the Jews and those who carried out the policy. Thus, he was able to witness the final solution from both sides. He recounts how Heinrich Himmler, second in overall authority in the Third Reich, told him (27-28) that Hitler had ordered that all Jews within the Nazi reach must be annihilated.
Höss's memoirs are divided into two parts, which have been relied upon and cited by historians since their publication in 1959. The first part is entitled The Final Solution of the Jewish Question and is dated November 1946. Here he details how the extermination machinery developed at Auschwitz. It should be pointed out that his account is in substantive agreement with other testimony by victims and perpetrators at Auschwitz. 10
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 08:35:39 [Permalink]
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[What the hell does an executed Confederate soldier, however controversial, have to do with the Holocaust?]
Wirz's case is eerily similar to that of Josef Kramer, commandant of Belsen. Both were commandants of prison camps on the losing side of a war where conditions in the camps at the end of the war caused many prisoners to die of disease. Both could document their efforts to prevent or remedy the catastrophic conditions in the camps. Both were tried in hoax trials. Both were executed. Wirz's case is often cited as the first 'war crimes' trial, and the precedent for Nuremberg. Unlike Kramer, Wirz was given the option of saving his own life by confessing. He refused ! Long live the South ! |
| Edited by - Rudolfo on 03/27/2010 08:38:27 |
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What is the physical evidence for the holocaust?
