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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
 Posted - 03/26/2010 : 22:49:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by Machi4velli
How exactly would this in any logical way lead me to think Sarah Palin wants me to go shoot a congressperson? |
It's technically and legally deniable, of course. But I believe the specific use of targeting crosshairs instead of X's, dots or stars to show the locations of the Democratic Congress members speaks for itself. |
Should we end all non-literal use of the word "target" also? |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2010 : 23:53:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by Machi4velli
How exactly would this in any logical way lead me to think Sarah Palin wants me to go shoot a congressperson? |
It's technically and legally deniable, of course. But I believe the specific use of targeting crosshairs instead of X's, dots or stars to show the locations of the Democratic Congress members speaks for itself. |
Should we end all non-literal use of the word "target" also?
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It's all in the context. If I were to say to a group of campaigns that we should primarily "target" swing elections that could go either way, that would surely be an acceptable usage.
If I were to address a mob of people who have been threatening their political opponents with violence to target certain opponents and use the phrase, as Palin did, "Don't retreat, instead, RELOAD!", that would be quite another. This isn't really the most subtle stuff in the world.
Note that I am not screaming for Palin's arrest or trying to prevent her from exercising her First Amendment rights. I think it's clear, though, that she's playing with dynamite here, and is skipping along with plausible deniability very close to a precipice. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 00:01:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by Machi4velli
How exactly would this in any logical way lead me to think Sarah Palin wants me to go shoot a congressperson? |
It's technically and legally deniable, of course. But I believe the specific use of targeting crosshairs instead of X's, dots or stars to show the locations of the Democratic Congress members speaks for itself. |
Should we end all non-literal use of the word "target" also?
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Here's the thing. Not all, I guess, but some of the teabaggers are bat-shit-crazy. You know? The kind of people who want to take an America back that never existed. The kind of people who carry signs depicting Obama as a monkey. The kind of people who think the new health care bill that just passed means that we have slipped into socialism and the country is in the hands of a bunch of pinko commies. (I could go on.) So it was at the very least, irresponsible of Palin to use the graph that she used. I really doubt that she was hoping for her followers to go out and commit crimes.
We should not end the use of the non-literal use of the word "target." That's just silly. And Palin should get better advisers.
If someone idiot actually does go out and shoot a politician because of that graph and the words she used, I will personally hold her responsible, even if the law can't touch her. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 00:40:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
If someone idiot actually does go out and shoot a politician because of that graph and the words she used, I will personally hold her responsible, even if the law can't touch her.
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Why not the shooter? If someone is so unstable as to go shoot a politician based on such a mild thing as this, such a person could be "incited" to commit violence by lots of things encountered every day. I mean have you heard the way people talk about politics in random gatherings? E.g. the crowd that goes for the idea "we outta just bomb the whole Mid East and be done with it"? |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 06:37:51 [Permalink]
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That near clone of Palin, Michelle Bachmann, is also using language that seems not-so-subtly intended to stir up violence. She says she wants people to be "armed and dangerous" in opposition to President Obama's Cap and Trade tax plan:Controversial Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minn.) said this weekend that she wants residents of her state "armed and dangerous" over President Barack Obama's plan to reduce global warming "because we need to fight back."
Asked about the White House-backed cap-and-trade proposal to reduce carbon emissions, Bachmann told WWTC 1280 AM, "I want people in Minnesota armed and dangerous on this issue of the energy tax because we need to fight back. Thomas Jefferson told us 'having a revolution every now and then is a good thing,' and the people -- we the people -- are going to have to fight back hard if we're not going to lose our country. And I think this has the potential of changing the dynamic of freedom forever in the United States."
Bachmann also told her constituents she was "a foreign correspondent on enemy lines," sending Minnesotans warnings through her blog, Facebook, Twitter, and Myspace. "I try to let everyone back here in Minnesota know exactly the nefarious activities that are taking place in Washington." |
To Bachmann, President Obama and the elected Democratic majority in Congress are clearly "enemies."
The NeoCons are creeping closer to treason every day. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 03/27/2010 06:40:39 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 06:57:39 [Permalink]
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It appears that Bachmann's (equally) crazed supporters seem to understand her message of terror. (Or perhaps they listened to Palin or Boehner?)
There's this article, showing that two Minnesota Congress members (Keith Ellison and Betty McCollum) who supported Obamacare are being actively harassed and threatened. One unsigned letter received by Congresswoman Betty McCollum says:| "I will hound you. I will intimidate you and your family. I will scream at you. I will re-write your history. I will physically out strong-arm you. I will shame you, your friends, and your family." |
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 03/27/2010 07:03:08 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 07:11:46 [Permalink]
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Then there's the overt terrorists like Mike Vanderboegh (hat tip to PZ Myers):So, if you wish to send a message that Pelosi and her party cannot fail to hear, break their windows.
Break them NOW. Break them and run to break again. Break them under cover of night. Break them in broad daylight. Break them and await arrest in willful, principled civil disobedience. Break them with rocks. Break them with slingshots. Break them with baseball bats.
But BREAK THEM.
The time has come to take your life, your liberty and that of your children and grandchildren into your own two hands and ACT.
It is, after all, more humane than shooting them in self defense.
And if we do a proper job, if we break the windows of hundreds, thousands, of Democrat party headquarters across this country, we might just wake up enough of them to make defending ourselves at the muzzle of a rifle unnecessary. |
Ironically, as PZ points out, the antisocialist Vanderboegh is sponging off the government by living on disability payments. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 12:08:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
Originally posted by Kil
If someone idiot actually does go out and shoot a politician because of that graph and the words she used, I will personally hold her responsible, even if the law can't touch her.
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Why not the shooter? If someone is so unstable as to go shoot a politician based on such a mild thing as this, such a person could be "incited" to commit violence by lots of things encountered every day. I mean have you heard the way people talk about politics in random gatherings? E.g. the crowd that goes for the idea "we outta just bomb the whole Mid East and be done with it"?
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Of course I would also hold the shooter responsible. And again, given her audience, what she said and did was irresponsible. You may think it was mild. But I'm not willing to separate what she says from the people who actually take what she says as gospel. Do I really need to go down the list of what many of the teabaggers believe again? Do you think "mild" describes what she said and graphed when we know from the signs and violence that has happened, many of her of her followers are bat-shit-crazy?
I'm a strong advocate for free speech. On those grounds I would not hold her criminally liable for her idiotic messages. But I would still hold her responsible for being irresponsible if someone got hurt, even if being chronically stupid is not a criminal offense.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 15:49:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
Originally posted by Kil
If someone idiot actually does go out and shoot a politician because of that graph and the words she used, I will personally hold her responsible, even if the law can't touch her.
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Why not the shooter? |
WTF?!?
Of course the shooter must be held responsible for his actions.
But that will not absolve Palin from her moral responsibility as a public figure.
I mean have you heard the way people talk about politics in random gatherings? E.g. the crowd that goes for the idea "we outta just bomb the whole Mid East and be done with it"?
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Yes, I've heard. But none of those f***tards have the means to bomb the Mid East back to the stone age.
But they do have the means to carry out Palin's "wishes" to have Democrats murdered.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2010 : 17:17:24 [Permalink]
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| I'm not talking about legal liability either, I don't agree with any sort of moral blame toward someone for saying something. War metaphors are very common, particularly among her target demographics and supporters, including many who have been soldiers, favor gun rights, tend to enjoy war fiction. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 03/28/2010 17:22:02 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2010 : 18:08:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
I'm not talking about legal liability either, I don't agree with any sort of moral blame toward someone for saying something. War metaphors are very common, particularly among her target demographics and supporters, including many who have been soldiers, favor gun rights, tend to enjoy war fiction.
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Really? So you are cool with liars then? Liars are just saying something. Hate speech is just saying something too. You don't think that a person who lies to further his own goals without concern for anyone who might get hurt, is acting immorally? I suppose then that you are cool with psychics like John Edwards who take advantage of grieving people, or scam artists like Kevin Trudeau? How about Benny Hinn? He's just saying something. You don't think that what they do is immoral?
Okay then... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2010 : 21:55:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by Machi4velli
I'm not talking about legal liability either, I don't agree with any sort of moral blame toward someone for saying something. War metaphors are very common, particularly among her target demographics and supporters, including many who have been soldiers, favor gun rights, tend to enjoy war fiction.
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Really? So you are cool with liars then? Liars are just saying something. Hate speech is just saying something too. You don't think that a person who lies to further his own goals without concern for anyone who might get hurt, is acting immorally? I suppose then that you are cool with psychics like John Edwards who take advantage of grieving people, or scam artists like Kevin Trudeau? How about Benny Hinn? He's just saying something. You don't think that what they do is immoral?
Okay then...
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Okay, I shouldn't have said that. There are some areas where I agree saying something can be wrong. All of these examples are significantly different from what Palin did, but I did say what you argued against there.
I'll stick to what I said regarding hate speech laws. If its not literally a threat, sexual harassment, coercion of some sort, or harms someone concretely and unjustly, I don't really care if some idiot is prejudiced. Ignore it.
Edward and Hinn are an interesting case because their gigs only work because people choose not to be rational. So I blame the fans at least as much as I blame the nonsense peddlers since nearly everyone is able to be rational and the fans choose not to be. I realize this does not absolve these guys and I do consider what they're doing morally wrong.
Fraud is something else I agree is morally wrong. Trudeau is claiming to sell something he isn't really selling. Those who lie to get ahead are hurting someone. This is fraud by my estimation. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2010 : 22:23:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
Edward and Hinn are an interesting case because their gigs only work because people choose not to be rational. So I blame the fans at least as much as I blame the nonsense peddlers since nearly everyone is able to be rational and the fans choose not to be. I realize this does not absolve these guys and I do consider what they're doing morally wrong. |
That's the thing. Palin's schtick is only likely to "work" on those who are already so unbalanced as to think she'd make a good President. And by "work," I mean that they'll try to "take back" Congressional seats through violent intimidation.
No matter how much we may not like it, words and their implications do have power. If the "I have a dream" speech had ended with a serious and inspiring call to take over government institutions until the dream was realized, it's undoubtable that hundreds or thousands of willingly irrational people would have stormed the Capitol building, and Martin Luther King, Jr. would have had at least a share in the moral responsibility for anyone hurt or even just inconvenienced by such an act.
Of course, whether people simply "choose not to be rational" is a whole 'nother discussion. The folks who believe Hinn, Edward, Trudeau and Palin likely have a whole lifetime of reinforcement of irrational beliefs supporting their latest irrationality, suggesting that the lies they're being fed by active con-men are correct or even pious. The idea that they just choose to be irrational seems to ignore the competing idea that their choices are shaped and influenced by years of peers, parents, clergy and other authorities telling them that irrationality is not only good, but is the only way to be good. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 18:15:36 [Permalink]
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So you're saying agreement with Palin's politics could only bcome from someone who is mentally unstable enough to be goaded into attacking a congressperson with this? If so, I'm afraid that's reflective of the sad state of polarization to which we have come.
All I have to go on is what Palin says, and she says its ridiculous to think she wants people to attack congresspersons, and she has clarified that she does not want people to do that.
Sure, King would be partially to blame of he had advocated storming the Capitol, but he didn't advocate that, just as Palin has clarified she does not want anyone to attack any congressperson. We certainly cannot blame someone for another person's misinterpretation. I don't blame Marx for Stalin's repression in the name of communism, I don't blame Nietzsche for Hitler's twisted view of his writings, and I cannot even blame Jesus, if he existed, for Giordano Bruno's execution in the name of Christianity. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 03/29/2010 18:16:54 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 18:22:25 [Permalink]
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| Of course, Martin Luther King., Jr. didn't have to "clarify" that he didn't advocate violence. Unlike Palin, Bachmann and Boehner, he never even hinted that he wanted violence. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Palin puts Dems in crosshairs on map
