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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
 Posted - 03/30/2010 : 07:21:27
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Interesting
I personally think that is taking things too far. After all the games are rated for content. What's next?
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I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2010 : 07:39:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by astropin
Interesting
I personally think that is taking things too far. After all the games are rated for content. What's next?
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Having never played one I don't know much about video games. However, I do know that as soon as something is banned, a thriving black market springs up like a March crocus.
This will work out as just one more hassle for law enforcement.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2010 : 09:17:00 [Permalink]
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Banning shit never works to eliminate it.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2010 : 10:46:25 [Permalink]
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Does the Swiss government already ban violent books, movies and television shows? If not, then why are video games being singled out?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2010 : 20:09:02 [Permalink]
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Because books and television shows depict acts of violence, they do not put you in control of them.
Also context is importance. Games like Manhunter place you in direct control of realistic murder and torture. Games by definition are there to entertain. So what we basically have here is a murder simulation for the purposes of entertainment.
Now if a movie depicts a murder in the context of a storyline, that's different to simply showing someone being murdered in a pornographic style. Snuff and torture movies are illegal. The same rules need to apply to games.
So what the censors have to filter out is what violence in games is basically pornographic, and what violence is justified in the context of the game.
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| Edited by - On fire for Christ on 04/01/2010 20:16:40 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2010 : 22:09:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Because books and television shows depict acts of violence, they do not put you in control of them. |
Films and television shows often put the viewer into a state of mind where they imagine themselves temporarily involved and emotionally invested in the violence they are seeing on screen. This is why people "jump" when the cat leaps out of the shadows during a suspenseful movie. Books, too, can conjure up such clear mental pictures that the people reading them lose all sense of their surroundings. In fact, I can think of no form of entertainment in which people are entirely passive receivers. All entertainment is an active engagement with people's minds and imaginations. Entertainment is the invitation to take yourself out of your own situation and experience a different one for awhile. Video games are absolutely no different in that respect than the plays of Shakespeare.
| Also context is importance. Games like Manhunter place you in direct control of realistic murder and torture. Games by definition are there to entertain. So what we basically have here is a murder simulation for the purposes of entertainment. |
Have you ever played Manhunter? I haven't, so I can't comment on how realistic the violence is. It just never appealed to me, so I never bought it. But I would have been pissed if the government decided for me that I'm not mature enough to make that decision for myself. I don't need a Nanny State looking over my shoulder monitoring my entertainment. Especially when historically sensors have always banned legitimate artistic expression. I remind you that James Joyce's Ulysses, considered perhaps the greatest novel ever written, couldn't be published in the U.S. when it came out because the censors declared it was pornographic. Bioshock is one of the most amazing intellectual rides I've taken in any medium in the past decade. If I were a Swiss citizen, I'd be angry as hell if the government decided I wasn't mature enough to handle such a "violent" experience. Considering there's never been a link demonstrated between violent video games and violent behavior, what could possibly justify this loss of liberty?
| Now if a movie depicts a murder in the context of a storyline, that's different to simply showing someone being murdered in a pornographic style. Snuff and torture movies are illegal. The same rules need to apply to games. |
Yes, the same rules do apply. No one can actually be murdered in the production of a video game. It has to be fictional violence. See, it's such a clear and definitive divide--pretend vs. real--that no sane person ever loses sight of where that line is. (Well, I guess that's not entirely true. Often times the religious have trouble with that distinction. Maybe that's why they seem to spearhead most censorship movements.)
| So what the censors have to filter out is what violence in games is basically pornographic, and what violence is justified in the context of the game. |
Ah, so you are pro-censorship. See, I tend to think that censorship never works. I don't think a bunch of intellectually stunted prudes should get to decide what forms of entertainment I have access to, so long as it doesn't harm anyone else. And that includes pornography.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/01/2010 22:16:08 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2010 : 22:35:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Snuff and torture movies are illegal. |
Citations, please.
Torture movies most certainly are not illegal, unless someone is actually being tortured. Same for snuff films. But then both are illegal because torture and murder are illegal, not because someone was depicted as being tortured or murdered.
There are plenty of examples of very realistic brutal sexual sadism in all sorts of perfectly legal movies. The crime is when those being filmed aren't acting. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2010 : 22:46:51 [Permalink]
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Films and television shows often put the viewer into a state of mind where they imagine themselves temporarily involved and emotionally invested in the violence they are seeing on screen. This is why people "jump" when the cat leaps out of the shadows during a suspenseful movie. Books, too, can conjure up such clear mental pictures that the people reading them lose all sense of their surroundings. In fact, I can think of no form of entertainment in which people are entirely passive receivers. All entertainment is an active engagement with people's minds and imaginations. Entertainment is the invitation to take yourself out of your own situation and experience a different one for awhile. Video games are absolutely no different in that respect than the plays of Shakespeare.
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But there is a significant difference to playing a role and watching someone else play a role. Even if you do get into a film as to imagine yourself in it, you would equally imagine yourself as the victim, in fact the horror genre plays on this to instill fear in the audience.
Have you ever played Manhunter? I haven't, so I can't comment on how realistic the violence is. It just never appealed to me, so I never bought it. But I would have been pissed if the government decided for me that I'm not mature enough to make that decision for myself. I don't need a Nanny State looking over my shoulder monitoring my entertainment. Especially when historically sensors have always banned legitimate artistic expression. I remind you that James Joyce's Ulysses, considered perhaps the greatest novel ever written, couldn't be published in the U.S. when it came out because the censors declared it was pornographic. Bioshock is one of the most amazing intellectual rides I've taken in any medium in the past decade. If I were a Swiss citizen, I'd be angry as hell if the government decided I wasn't mature enough to handle such a "violent" experience. Considering there's never been a link demonstrated between violent video games and violent behavior, what could possibly justify this loss of liberty?
Yes, the same rules do apply. No one can actually be murdered in the production of a video game. It has to be fictional violence. See, it's such a clear and definitive divide--pretend vs. real--that no sane person ever loses sight of where that line is. |
My personal opinion is that if a game puts you in control of realistic and cruel acts of violence, then this is really no more acceptable to torture pornography, because you are glorifying the acts. To use an analogy, is animated child pornography ok because it CLEARLY isn't real? If you had a say, would you allow a game where you hunt down and abuse children in a photorealistic way? No one is being hurt, right?
| Ah, so you are pro-censorship. See, I tend to think that censorship never works. I don't think a bunch of intellectually stunted prudes should get to decide what forms of entertainment I have access to, so long as it doesn't harm anyone else. And that includes pornography. |
Well the important part of your post is the "so long as it doesn't harm anyone else". I don't know what the effects of these games are. If someone spends hours on end controlling a character who kills and murders for fun, will that harm him/her? Of course they have ratings. Because up until 18 you're impressionable but the day you turn 18, you aren't. Also we have to consider that these types of things are a lot more likely to fall into the hands of kids by their very nature. "Censorship doesn't work", it definitely works to a degree, if people have to go to extra lengths to obtain something, if it is more expensive, if the availability is lower etc, then less people will be exposed to it.
This type of experience is so new how can anyone know, despite what you say about books and film, they still do not come close to the immersive experience of modern games, do we just allow the games and use the populace as guinea pigs? You can't compare it to lines of text, or a film or to the games of 10 years ago, this is unknown territory.
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| Edited by - On fire for Christ on 04/01/2010 22:49:57 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2010 : 23:41:06 [Permalink]
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| Why won't Switzerland allow its citizens to play Grand Theft Auto, as neutrals? |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2010 : 00:11:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
But there is a significant difference to playing a role and watching someone else play a role. |
So are you saying that acting needs to be banned? You can watch Hamlet just not star in it?
| My personal opinion is that if a game puts you in control of realistic and cruel acts of violence, then this is really no more acceptable to torture pornography, because you are glorifying the acts. |
How do you know when a game is "glorifying" violence? Simply putting a person in the role of a villain isn't the same as forcing them to accept the villains values. People will have all sorts of individual reactions when doing something violent and immoral in a video game, ranging from escapist glee to feeling unsettled and upset. It depends both on what emotion the designers intended to evoke and what the individual taking in the experience feels.
| To use an analogy, is animated child pornography ok because it CLEARLY isn't real? If you had a say, would you allow a game where you hunt down and abuse children in a photorealistic way? No one is being hurt, right? |
That's an interesting point. Ok, you've persuaded me. So long as no one is being hurt, I can't see a problem with it. Hell, it might even be better if the pedos are getting their rocks off inside their apartments with video games rather than lurking around neighborhood playgrounds.
| I don't know what the effects of these games are. |
I do and I told them to you. None.
| If someone spends hours on end controlling a character who kills and murders for fun, will that harm him/her? |
No. Do you have any more easy questions?
| Of course they have ratings. Because up until 18 you're impressionable but the day you turn 18, you aren't. |
Kids are impressionable because their brains aren't fully developed yet. Some young children have a problem telling the difference between fantasy and reality and understanding the consequences of their actions. But by 18 years old, yes, you're expected to have that much down at least.
| Also we have to consider that these types of things are a lot more likely to fall into the hands of kids by their very nature. |
Why "by their nature" are games more likely to fall into the hands of children? Kids can pop in a violent DVD as easy as a game disk.
| "Censorship doesn't work", it definitely works to a degree, if people have to go to extra lengths to obtain something, if it is more expensive, if the availability is lower etc, then less people will be exposed to it. |
Sure, people have a harder time finding things they're going to get anyway, but does it work in the sense of bettering society by stopping "immorality," however ambiguously defined? No, not in any quantifiable way.
| This type of experience is so new how can anyone know, despite what you say about books and film, they still do not come close to the immersive experience of modern games, do we just allow the games and use the populace as guinea pigs? You can't compare it to lines of text, or a film or to the games of 10 years ago, this is unknown territory. |
And why should any society let your fear--which you admit is based in abysmal ignorance--dictate the intellectual freedom of its citizens?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/02/2010 00:16:08 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2010 : 08:55:04 [Permalink]
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Anecdotally- I have been playing the most violent video games on the market for about 30 years (such things just started becomming available when I was about 10). Interestingly, I have never been arrested nor have I ever commited a crime more serious than driving over the speed limit. Nor have I ever been even slightly tempted to engage in any type of violent crime, the thought of it is nauseating.
To this day I still spend more time than I should playing video games where I engage in virtual acts of murder, genocide, and tons of other virtual acts of violence.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2010 : 09:43:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Anecdotally- I have been playing the most violent video games on the market for about 30 years (such things just started becomming available when I was about 10). Interestingly, I have never been arrested nor have I ever commited a crime more serious than driving over the speed limit. Nor have I ever been even slightly tempted to engage in any type of violent crime, the thought of it is nauseating.
To this day I still spend more time than I should playing video games where I engage in virtual acts of murder, genocide, and tons of other virtual acts of violence.
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+1 |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2010 : 15:20:02 [Permalink]
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Whether or not the effects of playing video games are any different from wathing movies and reading books is an empirical question. Is there any research pointing either way?
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METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2010 : 15:41:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hawks
Whether or not the effects of playing video games are any different from wathing movies and reading books is an empirical question. Is there any research pointing either way?
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Even if it did, should it matter? Making rules about children buying games is one thing, but why should an adult recognize the right of government to censor entertainment? How this could not logically extend to other forms of entertainment, I have no idea. The precedent would assuredly be harmful to the prospect of liberty in the future. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 04/02/2010 15:42:12 |
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Swiss Government to Ban Violent Video Games
