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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 06/21/2010 : 09:56:00 [Permalink]
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But that article says,Current wind technology deployed in nonenvironmentally protected areas could generate 37,000,000 gigawatt-hours of electricity per year, according to the new analysis conducted by the National Renewable Energy Laboratory and consulting firm AWS Truewind. It's the next sentence after that which notes that a 1993 estimate was 10,777,000 GWh. They've tripled the estimate in 17 years. Taking the new one and averaging it with the solar figure (as you did) gets us 28,006,472 GWh, or nearly twice as much as you estimated we will need in 2030.
And that doesn't include offshore wind, or any hydroelectric power or geothermal (this last one could easily be built underneath solar or wind generators, allowing the same land to generate power in multiple ways). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2010 : 10:00:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
That doesn't say anything about maximum solar potential, does it? Are you citing it just for acreage?
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Yes your right. In my calculation I used the 785,658,000 acres of public land currently. I am using 5000 watt-hours per square yard per day found in this article:
http://americanenergyindependence.com/solarenergy.aspx
Thanks. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2010 : 10:05:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
But that article says,Current wind technology deployed in nonenvironmentally protected areas could generate 37,000,000 gigawatt-hours of electricity per year, according to the new analysis conducted by the National Renewable Energy Laboratory and consulting firm AWS Truewind. It's the next sentence after that which notes that a 1993 estimate was 10,777,000 GWh. They've tripled the estimate in 17 years. Taking the new one and averaging it with the solar figure (as you did) gets us 28,006,472 GWh, or nearly twice as much as you estimated we will need in 2030.
And that doesn't include offshore wind, or any hydroelectric power or geothermal (this last one could easily be built underneath solar or wind generators, allowing the same land to generate power in multiple ways).
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I used the 10,777,000 estimate to be conservative. Which indicates that there is more than enough available wind energy to supply our consumption. I have not found anything if wind and solar can provide a reliable peak demand. Do you know of any sources? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2010 : 10:53:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
I used the 10,777,000 estimate to be conservative. Which indicates that there is more than enough available wind energy to supply our consumption. |
Ah, okay.| I have not found anything if wind and solar can provide a reliable peak demand. Do you know of any sources? |
If I remember the SciAm article correctly, peak demand is dealt with through upgrading and expanding the long-distance "grid" infrastructure, since it's never cloudy or windless across the whole of the U.S. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2010 : 16:08:03 [Permalink]
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moratorium overturned
But the up side is that President Obama can claim he saved 100,000 jobs! |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2010 : 18:31:43 [Permalink]
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| It strikes me as ludicrous for the drilling in deep water to continue until there is a sure fire quick way to stop a serious spill. As long as that technology doesn't exist, and we have all been witness to the fact that it doesn't, the lost jobs just aren't worth the risk. To compare this to the risk of a tanker spill is insane. But that's what was argued... As for the threat of moving the rigs to other countries, whatever... It's not as though we lose anything other than some local jobs by letting them drill here... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2010 : 05:28:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
It strikes me as ludicrous for the drilling in deep water to continue until there is a sure fire quick way to stop a serious spill. As long as that technology doesn't exist, and we have all been witness to the fact that it doesn't, the lost jobs just aren't worth the risk. To compare this to the risk of a tanker spill is insane. But that's what was argued... As for the threat of moving the rigs to other countries, whatever... It's not as though we lose anything other than some local jobs by letting them drill here...
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I agree that they need a better plan for this kind of disaster. It is not unreasonable to stop until we can find a better solution to this kind of spill. I would have rather seen a statment to the oil companies that if they do not have a better solution to a leak like this in 3 months then the government will shut you down until you do.
It's curious that 11 people died in this accident and the reason we are shutting the rigs down is because of the environment, not the safety of the workers. I gaurantee if 11 people died in this oil rig accident and no oil was leaked it would be buisness as usual. Since 2001, there have been 858 fires and explosions, 1,349 injuries and 69 deaths in the gulf. I guess people are expendable but fish are not. We can clean up the oil but we cannot bring those 11 people back. If there is an arguement for the moratorium then it should be about protecting peoples lives. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2010 : 05:53:49 [Permalink]
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| It's curious that 11 people died in this accident and the reason we are shutting the rigs down is because of the environment, not the safety of the workers. I gaurantee if 11 people died in this oil rig accident and no oil was leaked it would be buisness as usual. Since 2001, there have been 858 fires and explosions, 1,349 injuries and 69 deaths in the gulf. I guess people are expendable but fish are not. We can clean up the oil but we cannot bring those 11 people back. If there is an arguement for the moratorium then it should be about protecting peoples lives. |
I suppose it is debatable which is more important. 11 human lives or millions of non-human lives and an entire ecosystem. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2010 : 06:04:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
It's curious that 11 people died in this accident and the reason we are shutting the rigs down is because of the environment, not the safety of the workers. |
Read the article Kil linked to:"We will immediately appeal to the 5th circuit the president strongly believes as the Department of Interior and the Department of Justice argued yesterday that continuing to drill at these depths without knowing what happened does not make any sense and... potentially puts the safety of those on the rigs and the environment in the Gulf at a danger that the president does not believe we can afford right now," said spokesman Robert Gibbs during Tuesday's briefing. Bolding mine. They even mentioned the people first.| I guess people are expendable but fish are not. |
Well, there's also the fact that thousands, if not millions, of people make a living from those fish, so that destroying the ecosystem is also destroying economies. We will see increased rates of violence, divorce and suicide from what's already happened, even if it were all cleaned up tomorrow. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2010 : 06:35:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
I agree that they need a better plan for this kind of disaster. It is not unreasonable to stop until we can find a better solution to this kind of spill. I would have rather seen a statment to the oil companies that if they do not have a better solution to a leak like this in 3 months then the government will shut you down until you do.
It's curious that 11 people died in this accident and the reason we are shutting the rigs down is because of the environment, not the safety of the workers. I gaurantee if 11 people died in this oil rig accident and no oil was leaked it would be buisness as usual. Since 2001, there have been 858 fires and explosions, 1,349 injuries and 69 deaths in the gulf. I guess people are expendable but fish are not. We can clean up the oil but we cannot bring those 11 people back. If there is an arguement for the moratorium then it should be about protecting peoples lives.
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Unfortunately, worker protection in the US is far below par in many industries. This not only holds for the oil rigs, but for example also for the mining industry. Not that loss of human lives can ever be reduced to zero. These are dangerous lines of work even if the best safety measures are taken. The problem is that in many cases the safety measures taken are not the best these companies can do and the US government nor the unions of these various industries seem to be willing or able to address the issue.
That doesn't mean that the environment is suddenly more important than human lives. The oil spill will affect countless humans living near the coastal areas and will also have strong economical effects.
It is interesting to wonder whether the same kind of reaction would have occurred if the oil spill would have had the same reaction if only natural reserves with little strong economic value would have been affected. My guess is not, unfortunately. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2010 : 12:31:56 [Permalink]
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| It seems very clear to me (at least)that the environment is not a consideration and never is with oil and coal. Not any longer than it takes the microphones and cameras to go off somewhere else. Drilling will continue no matter what damage is done by this accident. Oh, Obama may stop drilling for 6 months still but the oil giants will drill where ever there's oil that they got a shot at. Maybe things will change in the future but I don't see any real desire for change yet, not the slightest bit. The government (States and Fed') wants the money they get from the leases and they are going to get it. Nothing will stop that, not lives, fishing jobs or the environment. Drill baby drill, will continue at all cost. Bet on it. Renewable energy is not going to offset our energy needs by any real percentage for at least 15yrs, the soonest, before it starts affecting oil or coal in any noticeable way. They are huge international monopolies and wield massive political power that can beat down any green movement. Exxon never cleaned up their mess and neither will BP because it's not possible, this isn't olive oil on your kitchen floor. You'll be able to find oil on the sea bed for hundreds of years, maybe forever. It's not capable of disappearing by it's self. Where is it going?. This is the way it's worked in the past, what has changed to make it different this time? SS |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2010 : 13:23:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
174,930,000,000 Gallons of gasoline were used in 2006 (1)
If the energy content of the gasoline is 120,900 Btu/Gallon (2) then there is a total energy in that gasoline of 21,149,037,000,000,000 Btu’s/year That is 6,198,171 GWH/year that would have to be generated per year to convert all cars to electric.
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The electrical efficiency (power from the grid in to the charger) for Li-Ion battery powered car is calculated in the ranges around 70-80%. Twice as affective as the most efficient gasoline powered otto-cycle engine, if you're calculating the use of respective energy content of the car's fuel.
Which means that for replacing 1 Wh gasoline, you only have to add half the amount of Wh from hydroelectric dams, wind generators, or electric solar cells to make the car run the same distance.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2010 : 15:52:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Robb
174,930,000,000 Gallons of gasoline were used in 2006 (1)
If the energy content of the gasoline is 120,900 Btu/Gallon (2) then there is a total energy in that gasoline of 21,149,037,000,000,000 Btu’s/year That is 6,198,171 GWH/year that would have to be generated per year to convert all cars to electric.
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The electrical efficiency (power from the grid in to the charger) for Li-Ion battery powered car is calculated in the ranges around 70-80%. Twice as affective as the most efficient gasoline powered otto-cycle engine, if you're calculating the use of respective energy content of the car's fuel.
Which means that for replacing 1 Wh gasoline, you only have to add half the amount of Wh from hydroelectric dams, wind generators, or electric solar cells to make the car run the same distance.
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Correct. I had 30% efficiency for gasoline engines but then forgot to use it. Thanks. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2010 : 18:36:57 [Permalink]
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I read not long go that a study of wind records along the Atlantic coast showed that offshore turbines could provide 24 hour grid power. How much depends how many machines there are. Because periods of no wind were local and at no time was there no wind collectively.
Here is an article about the wind potential for China. Why should this just apply to China? Of course Global oil companies know this too. Any engineering company can compete on building wind generators. The holder of an oil lease has no competition, they have a monopoly geographically. That same logic is why your local electricity providers do not want you to have solar electric power on your roof. Your power company holds a monopoly on supplying their customers (you). Just like BP doesn't want competition , neither does your electricity provider, they are a much smaller player, that is locked into you wallet, just like BP. If your dollars for energy are spent elsewhere their monopoly would evaporate, into thin air. At least greatly. Renewable is economical now. My boat, my home, has not been connected to a grid since 2002, I get my electricity from the sun, fact!
Most, no all, americans would have to adjust somewhat but it is doable and would be considered a no brainer after they are adjusted to it. It can be applied and it works. If you think about it, Oil, coal, hydro,wind, all energy on this plant comes from our Sun.
All except one, anyone want to name it? Hint, there are life forms that exclusively get their energy/food input from this source. We can harness this source without effecting these life forms. SS |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Gulf Oil Spill
