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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2010 :  04:12:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

Yes you are.
You're blaming the victim.


Not at all. Blame? No. Set up? Yes. Are they victims if they got exactly what they were after? They wouldn't be the first to lay down their lives for a cause...

You think they were a bunch of goody two shoes, Okay. Think that. I think they were fighting a war and they outflanked the enemy...


"I'm not blaming them, of course not, but this is what they wanted and what they asked for and what happened, and they're sinister besides." Geesh.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



Edited by - Gorgo on 06/07/2010 04:20:34
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2010 :  05:18:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Gorgo
Yeah. I read it right. Taking Israel's side.

Again, how?

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2010 :  05:19:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil
I know that you hate war, but that doesn't mean that the side you favor doesn't engage in it.


That implies that I think armed conflict is never necessary, and that I'm against Israel's action only because I "hate" war. I've never said that it is never necessary.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2010 :  05:22:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Gorgo
"I'm not blaming them, of course not, but this is what they wanted and what they asked for and what happened, and they're sinister besides." Geesh.


What do you think was their objective then? Do you seriously think they thought they would be able to reach Gaza? Do you seriously think that Israel would not enforce the blockade they declared?

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2010 :  05:27:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil
The Israeli's over-reacted even if they were met with violence.



There we are again. The Israelis only "overreacted" because they were met with violence. The Israelis attacked a peaceful ship. Can you "wrap your head" around that? A criminal attack. Even if you don't think they were firing live ammo, which all the evidence points to right now, they were firing rubberized steel bullets, percussion grenades and tear gas. Even if they had simply just boarded the ship without firing upon it, it is a deadly attack. The evidence right now points to a murderous attack.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2010 :  05:30:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.
Are you confusing evasion with escape, now? They were trying to run the blockade.


I'm not confusing anything. I said that the ship was trying to move away from the Israelis, as in they were not attacking the Israelis.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2010 :  05:31:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by podcat

So how does one protest an unjust action if any protest is basically a provocation? Should Martin Luther King, Jr. have canceled any sit-ins or marches in the 1960s? Granted, the main difference between those protests and the current Israeli blockade is that in the civil rights marches and sit-ins, the protesters did not defend themselves as those in the flotilla incident did.

I'm just a bit unsure about the word "provocation" as it conjures up images like going up to a person, that you know what the reaction will be, and punching him in the nose for no good reason. Both sides knew, or should have known, what the reaction would be.




I'm not sure of your point, as you seem to be contradicting yourself. Some shipments made it through to Gaza. Yes, you have to be prepared for the worst, but the point is to try to get through to Gaza, not to be killed in the process.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2010 :  05:35:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by Gorgo

Blaming the victims.
And the Israelis. There's enough blame to go around. Why do you refuse to accept this?
You cannot even say that they were running the blockade at the time.
I don't have to, because they said they were going to run the blockade.
They were way out into international waters in the middle of the night.
How close would they have to have been? The blockade itself is illegal, right? What does it matter where it happened, then?
You're spouting the pro-Israeli right wing crap you see on MSNBC.
And you're spouting nonsense which is contrary to reality.

You seem to think, contrary to the evidence provided by the protesters themselves and the Arab media, that these people were just minding their own business and were attacked by the Israelis out of the blue. That's false. They knew what they were doing. They were daring the Israelis to do something. Double-dog daring them. Trying to get them to react enough to get world-wide media attention. Was the Israeli response criminal? You bet it was. But that doesn't justify the provocation.

There's an old saying, "you mess with the bull, you get the horns." The only difference here is that you think that the "bull" can be reasoned with, and thus should be held criminally responsible. I think so, too. But that doesn't mean the victims weren't knowingly playing with fire.

How many more metaphors do you need, Gorgo? We have all these old saying because the situation comes up over and over and over again, throughout recorded history. They are common-sense warnings against doing exactly what the protesters did. They were not innocents who were unaware of what was going to happen, they were poking a known-to-be-rabid dog.

You also wrote:
...but there is no question this was an unprovoked attack...
Then the protesters failed, by their own standards, since they wanted to provoke a reaction from the Israelis, to draw attention to the blockade of Gaza. Why do you reject what they were saying before they left port? Do you think they were lying? What reasons would the protesters have to lie about what they intended to do?
There is no provocation which excuses the murders that took place after that.
You're absolutely right. Nobody is saying otherwise. Is that what your problem is? That saying that the protesters provoked the Israelis somehow "excuses" the Israeli response? That's certainly not the case.

You also wrote:
Kil, civil disobedience is about breaking the law.
Only in the most-narrow of definitions. Try this one:
Civil disobedience is the active refusal to obey certain laws, demands, and commands of a government, or of an occupying international power, using no form of violence.
The protesters against the Blockade weren't engaged in civil disobedience, since they prepared themselves ahead of time to fight back.

Kil brought up civil disobedience, and somebody that claimed that civil disobedience is about provoking murder. That was all bullshit, and you missed my point in just about everything here, and you're just repeating the right-wing nonsense that the victims are to blame.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2010 :  05:37:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

Originally posted by Gorgo

Kil, civil disobedience is about breaking the law. What laws were the protestors breaking?

At the risk of going around and around on this:

As far is the Israeli's are concerned, they were within their legal right to board the ships.

But here is the key. The activists knew that Israel believes that they were within their rights. That's not a friggen secret. So by challenging that belief of Israel's, it was indeed, and act of provocation. It just doesn't matter whether Israel is right or wrong about the law. What matters is how Israel interprets the law, which again, isn't a secret.

You should actually be happy, not about the deaths, none of us are, but the fact that Israel took the bait. They are being almost universally condemned, and rightly so for their actions.

To wrap your head around what happened, you need to forget what you believe is the law, and take into consideration, as everyone else has done, including the activists, what Israel thinks the law is.


Everybody claims that they're within their legal rights. Bush claimed his murder was justified, Clinton did, Bush I did, Saddam did. That has nothing to do with you blaming the victims.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2010 :  05:39:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by Gorgo

Exactly, but for some reason you and Kil repeat these smears of the victims of this crime.
Are you joking? That the victims stated their intentions to provoke a reaction from the Israelis is a "smear?" Are you such a hypersensitive postmodern leftist that simply stating a fact that you disagree with is a "smear," now?
Somehow I think you don't mean to do that, but think you're being sophisticated in repeating the right wing lies that you hear.
The victims of the Israeli crimes were spreading right-wing lies about themselves before they set sail? Are you at all serious?
Civil disobedience? Does Kil think that Israel rules the 7 seas? Is that why he thinks this group caused the Israelis to commit these crimes?
And now we see your re-definition of the word "provoked" to mean "caused." Do you honestly think that those words are synonyms?
I think he's mistaken in using the terms that he uses.
Look in the mirror.
Tell them you think their desire was not to peacefully take those supplies into Gaza.
Oh, come on! Do you have any idea what Israel thought of the IHH? Whether the IHH actually is a terrorist group is irrelevant, the idea that they had any chance of peacefully delivering those supplies is ludicrous, and they must have known that when they left port.

Go read the articles about the flotilla on the IHH website, Gorgo. The president of the group, Bulent Yildirim, describes Israel as an irrational military state making plans to intercept the flotilla many days before they arrived, and Yildirim repeatedly states that the ships would never turn away. He was basically saying that if the crazy people with the guns know what's good for them, they won't shoot. But calling them irrational and then expecting them to act rationally was just dumb. Israel drew a line in the sand (or water, in this case), and Yildirim was determined to step over it.

Now, I have no idea if any of them wanted to die, but they definitely went in looking for a confrontation. Yildirim's repeated statements that any Israeli aggression would be met non-violently were either coldly calculated lies or not everyone on board got the memo (in which case, Yildirim is still partially responsible because he didn't have control of the people he was leading). I'm leaning towards lies, since his words, "We do not even have a jackknife here," were ludicrous when a functioning ship of that size requires all sorts of implements which could be much more effective impromptu weapons than jackknives, and he followed it up with this ridiculous boast, "but we will not let the Israeli soldiers onboard this ship." Right. These two ideas, combined in the same sentence and juiced up with Israel being described as totally unreasonable, are beyond belief.

In another article, Yildirim discusses all the medical staff he had on board the ship. He suspected people were going to get hurt, even if nobody else did. Again, maybe he didn't expect people to die, but he was prepared for violence towards "women, children and the elderly."

Perhaps just Yildirim bears responsibility along with Israel. Perhaps all the other people on the ship were just duped by him into sticking their heads into the lion's mouth.
Just admit that you're wrong in unintentionally echoing these smears.
Just admit that you're joking when you suggest that facts are "smears."


More right wing smears.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9688 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2010 :  06:22:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by podcat

I don't believe we're talking about civil disobedience in this case, civil disobedience involves nonviolence.

There was violence on one of several boarded ships. For the most part, this was a nonviolent operation.

Originally posted by Dave_W.
.
They were way out into international waters in the middle of the night.
How close would they have to have been? The blockade itself is illegal, right? What does it matter where it happened, then?
Because the blatant violations of international law and violations against the people of Gaza compounds. We're getting one straw closer to the last. The more violations Israel force themselves to make in order to maintain their unhuman policy against Gaza and the Palestinian people, the sooner and harsher will the International community react to the humanitarian crisis there.

Trying to get them to react enough to get world-wide media attention. Was the Israeli response criminal? You bet it was. But that doesn't justify the provocation.
(Emphasis mine) I disagree. At least until I hear a convincing argument why it doesn't justify the provocation. Remember, there were several ships sailing together, and the main assault and weaponsfire happened (as far as I know) on one ship.


They are common-sense warnings against doing exactly what the protesters did.
There are also common-sense reason for doing exactly what the protesters did. As long as one of the most powerful nations and greatest supporter on the planet gives Israel its silent consent, someone else has to draw the line and say enough is enough. As long as Obama just speaks without putting action behind his words, he's just bullshitting, and not fooling anyone.



Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

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dglas
Skeptic Friend

Canada
397 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2010 :  06:44:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send dglas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Gorgo

Originally posted by dglas

I see two peoples determined to kill each other, and other interests that are helping them do just that.

Nothing more. I do not take sides.


Yeah. I read it right. Taking Israel's side.



Fuck off, you arrogant, sub-moronic jack-ass!

You do NOT ever dare to try to tell me what I am thinking! Is THAT fucking clear enough so that EVEN you understand it?

Your "with us or against us" mentality is NOT something I share and it is precisely what I am opposed to, so ram your mindless dichotomous views straight up your flabby saddlebags. If you had a hint of sniff of a reasonable hand drawn facsimile of a fucking clue you might have caught that, but you are so lost in your mindless polarizing game that you don't have two brain cells that can cooperate anymore.

If you are stupid enough to be taken in by superficial cards tricks that is your error, not mine. You do not ever try to tell me what my position is, especially when you openly display not having the basic tools to even comprehend it.

--------------------------------------------------
- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
--------------------------------------------------
The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
--------------------------------------------------
Edited by - dglas on 06/07/2010 06:50:20
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2010 :  06:53:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by dglas

Fuck off, you arrogant, sub-moronic jack-ass!

You do NOT ever dare to try to tell me what I am thinking! Is THAT fucking clear enough so that EVEN you understand it?

Your "with us or against us" mentality is NOT something I share and it is precisely what I am opposed to, so ram your mindless dichotomous views straight up your flabby saddlebags. If you had a hint of sniff of a reasonable hand drawn facsimile of a fucking clue you might have caught that, but you are so lost in your mindless polarizing game that you don't have two brain cells that can cooperate anymore.

If you are stupid enough to be taken in by superficial cards tricks that is your error, not mine. You do not ever try to tell me what my position is, especially when you openly display not having the basic tools to even comprehend it.


You're right. I assumed that you were not ignorant of the situation, which is fine, but one would assume that you'd stay out of a discussion of the situation if you were. My mistake. If you're not ignorant of the situation, and you're not taking sides, then you side with the aggressor. Not a judgment, plenty do it. Just sayin'.


I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2010 :  06:58:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Gorgo

More right wing smears.
Okay, now that Gorgo has asserted that the protesters own web site contains "right wing smears" of themselves, we can all know for sure that he is completely beyond reason.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2010 :  07:12:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by Gorgo

More right wing smears.
Okay, now that Gorgo has asserted that the protesters own web site contains "right wing smears" of themselves, we can all know for sure that he is completely beyond reason.


Your interpretation of what they said.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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