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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 07/20/2010 : 12:53:18 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by ooh_child |
| But twice now in this thread you have tried to use examples to bolster your point that've been first popularized by Breitbart & Co. |
I just found them through a goggle search so it must be a coincidence.
| Examples that have been largely debunked once examined in the light of day. I guess my question for you is: When are you going to stop using stories pushed by this hack? |
Are you here just because you have a beef with Breitbart & Co. or because you have a beef with people creating sweeping generalizations of millions based on the actions of a few?
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2010 : 13:21:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
I can't help to notice that the format is fucked again.
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My favorite was the black guy holding the sign: "Blacks against Obama"
My second was the black lady holding the sign: "Honk if I am paying your mortgage"
And this is listed under tea party racism? Good thing your beef is with white conservatives.
And the rest seem to be the same 20-25 signs that we have seen over and over and over again for the last 6 months now. Of which most are claiming Obama is a socialist, or have him with a Hitler mustache, or painted as the joker, or have him as Stalin and really have nothing at all to do with racism. Unless not agreeing with the obama agenda amounts to racism that is. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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ooh_child
New Member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2010 : 13:30:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by ooh_child |
| But twice now in this thread you have tried to use examples to bolster your point that've been first popularized by Breitbart & Co. |
I just found them through a goggle search so it must be a coincidence.
| Examples that have been largely debunked once examined in the light of day. I guess my question for you is: When are you going to stop using stories pushed by this hack? |
Are you here just because you have a beef with Breitbart & Co. or because you have a beef with people creating sweeping generalizations of millions based on the actions of a few?
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Regarding the accusations of racism happening in both major political parties, I think it's overblown on both sides. I remember listening to Hannity & his cohorts accusing Obama of being 'racist' early on during Obama's campaign. I thought it was way over the top even then. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, and progressive/liberal organizations are accusing darlings of the conservative movement of the same type of racism (guilt by association), I just see it as a normal escalation in the war against the direction this country is now moving towards.
Regarding my 'beef' with Breitbart & Co., I'm just disgusted with the number of people who still take the crap he dishes out & run with it into discussions about the situation our country is in. He has been discredited so many times, and yet he's still treated as a credible source for information. I look forward to the time when he's laughed out of the room when he brings up another 'bombshell' against the administration. |
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ooh_child
New Member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2010 : 13:39:01 [Permalink]
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And the rest seem to be the same 20-25 signs that we have seen over and over and over again for the last 6 months now. Of which most are claiming Obama is a socialist, or have him with a Hitler mustache, or painted as the joker, or have him as Stalin and really have nothing at all to do with racism. Unless not agreeing with the obama agenda amounts to racism that is.
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Hitler wasn't racist? Stalin wasn't racist? Wow, I must've missed that day in world history class. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2010 : 13:59:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Maybe. If I let only my emotions answer that question then I would probably say they are clearly a racist group. If I strip my emotion away then I would probably be reluctant to label the NAACP, as a whole, a racist group. |
I see. According to you, if someone makes what you think is a sweeping generalization, it's due to emotion, period. Nevermind the stated reasons.| In a group of that size and scope there are probably folks from all over the board being represented. Some who hate white people to no end all the way to those who are there for positive reasons who really want to dialect with other races and work out our differences. Within the tea party movement it would be no different. You have a wide range of folks being represented all the way from the guy who hates black people to no end all the way to those who are there to protest out of control government spending and nothing more. This has been my point, that with a group who's numbers are those the size of the tea party movement or the NAACP it would be awful hard to come up with a one-size-fits-all label for either group as a whole without it turning into a sweeping generalization. And in a nutshell that was the problem I had with this thread. The poster was trying to paint the entire tea party movement with his racist brush while I was pointing out that his broad brush really can only be applied to elements within the tea party express mainly Miller. Certainly this alone does not justify generalizing the whole movement. |
With this logic, one cannot say that the KKK is a racist group, simply because it's likely that there are some people in it who aren't actually racists.
In reality, calling a group or "movement" racist is not the same as saying that every single person in the group or who aligns themselves with the movement is a racist. You, Bill, are broad-brushing the term "sweeping generalization." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2010 : 16:26:54 [Permalink]
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Here's pretty much the story of the Sherrod/white farmer incedent and what is being done about it.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2010 : 17:02:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
And it would have been nice had the accusers of racism towards the tea party movement followed your advice. Had they done so they could have figured out that the Northern Iowa Tea Party was rebuked and the tea party expresse was expelled with the announcement coming from the tea party federations black spokesman. Instead they decided to let their emotions rule and ended up having to eat crow because of it. |
No, Bill. The Tea Parties' racist contingents had been allowed to run free for many months, and the official response had been, "what racism? I don't see any racism." The accusations were not a rush to judgment, and nobody is eating any crow. Tea Party leaders finally got around to taking action against those who had been hurting their reputation for a long time. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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podcat
Skeptic Friend
435 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 02:59:28 [Permalink]
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Thanks! I hadn't been paying a lot of attention to him util just recently, but taking a good look, this Breitbart douche creeps me out. He puts the "scum" in "lying scumbag."
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 07/21/2010 03:01:11 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 04:55:38 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by ooh_child |
| Regarding the accusations of racism happening in both major political parties, I think it's overblown on both sides. I remember listening to Hannity & his cohorts accusing Obama of being 'racist' early on during Obama's campaign. I thought it was way over the top even then. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, and progressive/liberal organizations are accusing darlings of the conservative movement of the same type of racism (guilt by association), I just see it as a normal escalation in the war against the direction this country is now moving towards. |
I would agree.
| Regarding my 'beef' with Breitbart & Co., I'm just disgusted with the number of people who still take the crap he dishes out & run with it into discussions about the situation our country is in. He has been discredited so many times, and yet he's still treated as a credible source for information. I look forward to the time when he's laughed out of the room when he brings up another 'bombshell' against the administration. |
I was not aware there even was an Andrew to go with the Breitbart. I have been on the website from time to time just from somehow getting linked there, probably the drudgereport. Thanks for the tip. I'll read from that website with a grain of salt from now on until I know more about the story.
| Hitler wasn't racist? Stalin wasn't racist? Wow, I must've missed that day in world history class. |
They weren't socialist? When I see a sign that says Obama is a socialist next to a sign with Obama as Hitler I tend to conclude that they are trying to portray Obama a socialist and not a racist but that's just me. People look at the same evidence and come to different conclusions all the time. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 05:05:11 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| I see. According to you, if someone makes what you think is a sweeping generalization, it's due to emotion, period. Nevermind the stated reasons. |
I never said that. I said that I might easily claim the NAACP is racist if I went strictly by my emotion. But when I strip the emotion out of it and let reason alone form my conclusion then I conclude that it would be unreasonable for me to cherry pick a few individuals out of a group of millions and then brand the whole movement as racist.
| With this logic, one cannot say that the KKK is a racist group, simply because it's likely that there are some people in it who aren't actually racists. |
Nope. We can say the KKK is a racist group with confidence because they claim to be in their creeds while the NAACP and Tea Party movement do not. The KKK publicly claim that the white race is superior while all other races are sub-races. I even think that members of most sects of the KKK have to take oaths stating such. So any member in most sects of the KKK who is not a racist would have had to lie to gain that membership. The NAACAP and the tea party movement will both publicy acknowledge that the races are equal. big differance.
| In reality, calling a group or "movement" racist is not the same as saying that every single person in the group or who aligns themselves with the movement is a racist. You, Bill, are broad-brushing the term "sweeping generalization." |
You are twisting around my position. My position is that cherry picking out single persons and then making a generalization about a group, who's numbers are in the millions, based on those cherry picked persons is a sweeping generalization.
| No, Bill. The Tea Parties' racist contingents had been allowed to run free for many months, and the official response had been, "what racism? I don't see any racism." The accusations were not a rush to judgment, and nobody is eating any crow. Tea Party leaders finally got around to taking action against those who had been hurting their reputation for a long time. |
And as we have already discussed on this thread the tea party movement is not a bunch of splinter groups derived from one national organization. The tea party movement started with protests over the original bailout initiated by GWB and then grew into many stand alone splinter groups all over the country. It is only recently that the tea party federation has been seen as the national representation for the stand alone tea party groups and it indeed dealt with the tea party express in a harsh way. Case closed. The only other example I was familiar with was the sign with Obama, Hitler and Stalin paid for by the Northern Iowa Tea Party which was quickly rebuked by many other stand alone tea party chapters. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 07/21/2010 07:21:49 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 07/21/2010 : 06:28:26 [Permalink]
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Teabaggers by the numbers:
Interesting.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 07/21/2010 06:29:30 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 06:43:58 [Permalink]
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I don't see any big surprises here. What parts do you find interesting? And what's your beef with the tea party now that the racism label has been dispelled? |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 09:09:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
I never said that. I said that I might easily claim the NAACP is racist if I went strictly by my emotion. But when I strip the emotion out of it and let reason alone form my conclusion then I conclude that it would be unreasonable for me to cherry pick a few individuals out of a group of millions and then brand the whole movement as racist. |
The you're saying you were projecting when you said, "Instead they decided to let their emotions rule and ended up having to eat crow because of it."| Nope. We can say the KKK is a racist group with confidence because they claim to be in their creeds... |
That would still unfairly paint some non-racists as racists.| You are twisting around my position. My position is that cherry picking out single persons and then making a generalization about a group, who's numbers are in the millions, based on those cherry picked persons is a sweeping generalization. |
Nobody had to cherry-pick these people, they stood out all on their own. And the generalizations weren't based on the few racists, but on the deafening silence of their compatriots in response to the racists. "Tacit approval" is a term you might have heard.| And as we have already discussed on this thread the tea party movement is not a bunch of splinter groups derived from one national organization. The tea party movement started with protests over the original bailout initiated by GWB and then grew into many stand alone splinter groups all over the country. |
All irrelevant.| It is only recently that the tea party federation has been seen as the national representation for the stand alone tea party groups... |
Irrelevant.| ...and it indeed dealt with the tea party express in a harsh way. |
But first it waited and did nothing through months of bad press.Indeed. Without anyone eating crow.| The only other example I was familiar with was the sign with Obama, Hitler and Stalin paid for by the Northern Iowa Tea Party which was quickly rebuked by many other stand alone tea party chapters. |
Tea Partiers had already been taking the brunt of criticisms of racism for at least five months before that billboard even went up. In other words, despite a charged environment, someone was dumb enough to still think it was a good idea. That others had better judgment is a good sign for the Tea Party overall, but it doesn't erase the past inaction. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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ooh_child
New Member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 09:45:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
I was not aware there even was an Andrew to go with the Breitbart. I have been on the website from time to time just from somehow getting linked there, probably the drudgereport. Thanks for the tip. I'll read from that website with a grain of salt from now on until I know more about the story. |
Hmmm....Drudge. That explains a lot. If I were you, I'd take many of Drudge's headlines with a grain of salt also. There are quite a few sites out there which have taken Drudge to task for misleading his readers time & time again. You can 'goggle' them easily. |
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NAACP: Klan with a tan.
