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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 07/21/2010 : 10:33:34 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| The you're saying you were projecting when you said, "Instead they decided to let their emotions rule and ended up having to eat crow because of it." |
I see your point. I probably should have not concluded that emotions lead the creator of this thread to his conclusion as maybe he did use reason. Either way the premise ended up being unfounded and so, in my opinion, crow was eaten.
| That would still unfairly paint some non-racists as racists. |
How so?
| Nobody had to cherry-pick these people, they stood out all on their own. And the generalizations weren't based on the few racists, but on the deafening silence of their compatriots in response to the racists. |
Just so I know we are on the same page here who are you referring to as the racists, what was their racist actions and who was supposed to condemn this?
| Tea Partiers had already been taking the brunt of criticisms of racism for at least five months before that billboard even went up. In other words, despite a charged environment, someone was dumb enough to still think it was a good idea. That others had better judgment is a good sign for the Tea Party overall, but it doesn't erase the past inaction. |
So a stand alone tea party group of 200 members, out of millions who affiliate with the movement, puts up a sign all on their own and then it is condemned by several other stand alone tea party groups to the point where the sign is taken down and this paints a negative light on the tea party movement as a whole how? |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 11:24:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Either way the premise ended up being unfounded and so, in my opinion, crow was eaten. |
The premise, that there seem to be a lot of racists in the Tea Parties because a blind eye was being turned towards overt racism, wasn't unfounded. Far from eating crow, the current "throw out the racists" mood is vindication of what outsiders have been saying all along.| Just so I know we are on the same page here who are you referring to as the racists, what was their racist actions and who was supposed to condemn this? |
Oh, forcryingoutloud. Are you serious? Just use Mark Williams as a single example.| So a stand alone tea party group of 200 members, out of millions who affiliate with the movement, puts up a sign all on their own and then it is condemned by several other stand alone tea party groups to the point where the sign is taken down and this paints a negative light on the tea party movement as a whole how? |
The other "stand alone tea party groups" thought the sign cast a negative light on the movement as a whole, or else they wouldn't have condemned it, now would they? Why is this so hard for you to understand? If all the groups were truly independent, as you're trying to make them out to be, why would anyone else have complained? It wasn't their web sites displayed on the sign, so why did they care? Why "condemn" the sign if all the groups are independent and the bad acts of a minority don't reflect on the majority who stand silently by offering tacit approval? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 11:44:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
I don't see any big surprises here. What parts do you find interesting? And what's your beef with the tea party now that the racism label has been dispelled?
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It is merely a social study -- what parts did you find interesting, assuming that you opened the link and read the pages? And who says the racism label is dispelled?
Another question: you keep saying "millions" of teabaggers. How many millions, and where do you get that figure? The people who did the study might want to know.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 12:57:39 [Permalink]
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Death threats always liven the conversation up. I like 'em, myself. I only find it sad that these puling, little pussies will never actually have a go at it.
It's obvious why Andrew Breitbart successfully smeared Shirley Sherrod on utterly fake grounds -- he wants desperately to prove that it's the NAACP is actually a racist organization, after its condemnation of racism within the Tea Parties. Indeed, this has been a long-running schtick of Breitbart's -- that the "real" racists are not white people, but people of color.
He was even on CNN yesterday whining that "It is un-American" that the NAACP accused the Tea Party movement of racism "absent evidence".
Um, actually, Andrew, the NAACP provided plenty of evidence of racism within its ranks.
And then, as if to prove the point, a caller who clearly is an angry Tea Partier left the following message at NAACP's Hollywood bureau:
Caller: Of course you won't answer the phone yourself. Because you're chickens--t racist n---ers. The entire black race is nothing but a have-not bunch of bums. You can't work for yourselves. All you do is suck off the white man. F--k you, motherf---er! F--k you! You want a race war, you got it, motherf---er! You want to f---ing kill our babies, and kill white people? You, you're gonna f---in' -- the streets will run red with blood. The streets will run red with your blood. F--k you!
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Bolding in the original. there is also a not-safe-for-work audio.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2010 : 11:55:03 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| The premise, that there seem to be a lot of racists in the Tea Parties because a blind eye was being turned towards overt racism, wasn't unfounded. Far from eating crow, the current "throw out the racists" mood is vindication of what outsiders have been saying all along. |
Vindication my eye. It contradicts the premise that there are a lot racist in the tea parties. And this administration agrees that the tea party movement is not racist so they are at odds with the premise as well. And simply because there was no national federation recognized to condemn Mark Williams in no way implies that the tea party movement as a whole supported Williams. Your going to have to come with more then that. And without a nationally recognized federation just who was it that you were waiting on to come out and condemn Williams that would have garnered national attention so we could have all heard about it?
| Oh, forcryingoutloud. Are you serious? |
Yes, why is that surprising? So far you guys have given me Williams, some Tom T. guy I have never heard of and a sign in Iowa that was rebuked by other tea parties and was then brought down shortly after it went up do to the rebuke.
| Just use Mark Williams as a single example. |
Well I am really getting tired of talking about Williams and was hoping you would give some fresh names to look up but OK I will go with Williams as a single example. I just typed in "Mark Williams tea party express" in goggle and the first four pages were all links to stories that were dated the last half of this July and were about the tea party express expulsion by the federation, expect for one. And that one was from last summer and it was about Williams apologizing to Hindus for something he said that offended them. To be honest I had never heard of Williams until this thread. And I visit the drudgereport, the huffingtonpost, MSNBC, Fox news and ABC news on a daily bases so I pretty much am up to speed on current events. I am sure the overwhelming majority of tea people at the grassroots level had never heard of the guy either, at least until this last week or so. And again without national representation or a spokesman who was suppose to be condemning the guy on a national level anyway? A guy that most people had never even heard of. I mean some of the local stand alone tea party groups could have condemned him and just never got national press coverage for all I know. Like I said a goggle search on Williams and the tea party express only gave me links to stories from this July and the expulsion. At least the first 4 pages that is.
| The other "stand alone tea party groups" thought the sign cast a negative light on the movement as a whole, or else they wouldn't have condemned it, now would they? Why is this so hard for you to understand? If all the groups were truly independent, as you're trying to make them out to be, why would anyone else have complained? It wasn't their web sites displayed on the sign, so why did they care? Why "condemn" the sign if all the groups are independent and the bad acts of a minority don't reflect on the majority who stand silently by offering tacit approval? |
Um, that whole guilt by association thing. Perfect example being this forum. A socialist sign is put up by a 200 member stand alone tea party group and this forum uses that as a springboard to imply racism on the whole tea party movement. Even when the same story tells us that other tea party groups rebuked the sign to the point where it was brought down.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2010 : 12:00:36 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by filthy |
| It is merely a social study -- what parts did you find interesting, assuming that you opened the link and read the pages? |
I did not find anything interesting. That is why is I said no surprises here. You said "interesting" in your link which made me interested in what you found interesting about the study and so I asked.
| And who says the racism label is dispelled? |
President Obama and vice-president Biden for starters. And so whats your big beef with the tea party movement now that the whole racism charge has been dispelled?
| Another question: you keep saying "millions" of teabaggers. How many millions, and where do you get that figure? The people who did the study might want to know. |
From the social study that you provided. It said:
| Eighteen percent of Americans identify as Tea Party supporters. |
The last time I checked and if my calculator ain't broken 18% out of 300 million Americans equals millions.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2010 : 12:49:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Vindication my eye. It contradicts the premise that there are a lot racist in the tea parties. |
"Seems like" were the operative terms. The premise was that it seems like there are lots of racists in the movement, and people should have been kicking them out. They're now kicking them out. How is that not vindication?| And this administration agrees that the tea party movement is not racist so they are at odds with the premise as well. |
I'm not interested in arguments from authority.| And simply because there was no national federation recognized to condemn Mark Williams in no way implies that the tea party movement as a whole supported Williams. |
But it's more than Mark Williams, and it's more than the Federation that was only formed three months ago.| Your going to have to come with more then that. |
You're the one claiming that people here should be eating crow. You need to actually make a case based on the facts, and not the facts as you'd wished they were.| And without a nationally recognized federation just who was it that you were waiting on to come out and condemn Williams that would have garnered national attention so we could have all heard about it? |
Wow. With logic like that, I should have never heard of the Tea Party movement until the federation magically poofed into existence.| Yes, why is that surprising? So far you guys have given me Williams, some Tom T. guy I have never heard of and a sign in Iowa that was rebuked by other tea parties and was then brought down shortly after it went up do to the rebuke... |
Well, there's your problem: you're so ignorant of the subject that you've never heard of Tom Tancredo, a five-term Congressman and candidate for the GOP nomination for President in 2008 who once declared Miami to be a "Third World Country." Likewise these other people. How could you possibly understand this to have been a big deal for a long time when you obviously don't pay attention to the national news?| And I visit the drudgereport, the huffingtonpost, MSNBC, Fox news and ABC news on a daily bases so I pretty much am up to speed on current events. |
Apparently not. Your obvious ignorance flatly contradicts your self-assessment.| I am sure the overwhelming majority of tea people at the grassroots level had never heard of the guy either, at least until this last week or so. |
I think it's great that you've got the ability to turn ignorance into confidence.| And again without national representation or a spokesman who was suppose to be condemning the guy on a national level anyway? |
Again: plenty of Tea Partiers made the national news (either through being the subject of reports or from being interviewed) long before there was a federation or other "national representation." This obsession you've got with down-playing their nation-wide access, coverage and impact is beyond me.| A guy that most people had never even heard of... |
Because you've never heard of him doesn't mean that "most people" haven't. How ego-centric of you.| Um, that whole guilt by association thing. |
Yes! That's the whole point. Unfortunately, you still don't actually get it. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2010 : 13:34:52 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| "Seems like" were the operative terms. The premise was that it seems like there are lots of racists in the movement, and people should have been kicking them out. They're now kicking them out. How is that not vindication? |
Well I am through arguing with you. Williams is gone, the president and the vice-president have acknowledged the tea party is not a racist group. So your premise, whatever you founded it on, sure "seems like" it has been debunked and the tea party has been vindicated and that was really my whole point in joining the thread. So hopefully you have had a teachable moment here about sweeping generalizations and premises. And that is even when you base your generalization or premise off of it seems like they are racist or it looks like they are racist or they sure appear to be racist that they very easily could end up not being racist, as in the case here with the tea party movement. So just remember in the future that seems like a racist, looks like a racist, or appears to be a racist is not a default for is a racist.
| Again: plenty of Tea Partiers made the national news (either through being the subject of reports or from being interviewed) long before there was a federation or other "national representation." |
Who were they? So far I have been given Mark, Tom and a sign in Iowa. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 07/22/2010 13:39:39 |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2010 : 13:56:05 [Permalink]
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| Maybe if the teabaggers changed their tone and spoke about how they hate blacks in a much nicer way than they currently are then their arguments would be more effective on the general public. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2010 : 13:59:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
So hopefully you have had a teachable moment here about sweeping generalizations and premises. And that is even when you base your generalization or premise off of it seems like they are racist or it looks like they are racist or they sure appear to be racist that they very easily could end up not being racist, as in the case here with the tea party movement. So just remember in the future that seems like a racist, looks like a racist, or appears to be a racist is not a default for is a racist. |
Bill, but what if the Tea Baggers are a racist group but don't want to seem like one? Did it even occur to you that perhaps the only reason Williams is only gone isn't because he's racist, but because he didn't disguise his racism well enough? How do you know what's in people's hearts and minds anyway? Why are only your assumptions valid? Why do you get to moralize?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2010 : 14:15:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Well I am through arguing with you. |
Oh, good.| Williams is gone, the president and the vice-president have acknowledged the tea party is not a racist group. So your premise, whatever you founded it on, sure "seems like" it has been debunked and the tea party has been vindicated and that was really my whole point in joining the thread. |
You obviously just don't want to understand, because you keep on refusing to acknowledge the qualifying clause of "the premise." So long as you continue to do that, you're not arguing against anything I've said.| So hopefully you have had a teachable moment here about sweeping generalizations and premises. And that is even when you base your generalization or premise off of it seems like they are racist or it looks like they are racist or they sure appear to be racist that they very easily could end up not being racist, as in the case here with the tea party movement. So just remember in the future that seems like a racist, looks like a racist, or appears to be a racist is not a default for is a racist. |
Nobody said otherwise, Bill. That's just a strawman that you built.| Who were they? So far I have been given Mark, Tom and a sign in Iowa. |
Tea Partiers who made the national news? How about almost everyone who attended a Tea Party protest in early 2009? Those were hundreds of thousands of Tea Partiers making the national news over a year before the national federation began. I find your ignorance to be truly jaw-dropping, here. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 07/22/2010 : 15:47:34 [Permalink]
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And, Bill, I would remind; just just because Williams has dropped out of sight is not definitive evidence that he's gone. I think we'll see/hear more of him well before the 2012 election. Also, I wonder: how much authority does this "Federation" wield over the various fragments of the party? And finally, how many of the 18% are active -- go to rallies & wave misspeled signs, donate cash, and so forth -- and how many are just "supporters?" And finally, do you really take the polls as gospel? I don't.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 07/22/2010 15:50:59 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2010 : 17:07:24 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by H. Humbert |
| Bill, but what if the Tea Baggers are a racist group but don't want to seem like one? |
What if they are not but you just want them to seem like one so bad that it hurts you?
| Did it even occur to you that perhaps the only reason Williams is only gone isn't because he's racist, but because he didn't disguise his racism well enough? |
Did it ever occur to you that he was expelled because he was a racist and that was taking the movement off it's message, which is bloated and wasteful government spending and has nothing to do with racism?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Party_movement
| How do you know what's in people's hearts and minds anyway? |
How do you?
| Why are only your assumptions valid? |
Why are yours?
| Why do you get to moralize? |
Why do you?
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 07/22/2010 17:55:25 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2010 : 17:08:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Maybe if the teabaggers changed their tone and spoke about how they hate blacks in a much nicer way than they currently are then their arguments would be more effective on the general public.
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Who are you referring to or is this just and anecdotal example? |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2010 : 17:14:10 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by filthy |
| And, Bill, I would remind; just just because Williams has dropped out of sight is not definitive evidence that he's gone. I think we'll see/hear more of him well before the 2012 election. |
Fine, it’s a free country. But he won’t be running under the tea party federation banner.
| Also, I wonder: how much authority does this "Federation" wield over the various fragments of the party? |
Apparently enough that everybody was all bent out of shape when they did not expel Williams 5 months ago even though the federation itself is only 3 months old and I am not even sure if they have been recognized as the national spokesman for the movement that long. This is a party in its infancy. But the good news is in 3 short months they have been able to gain the reigns and then expel that bad apple. Now they are getting ready for November.
| And finally, how many of the 18% are active -- go to rallies & wave misspeled signs, donate cash, and so forth -- and how many are just "supporters?" |
Maybe you can take a poll and find out how many who checked supporters are really supporters. And then another poll to see if all who checked supporters twice are really supporters. And then another poll…
Besides just checking "supporter" is a good sign that they would vote in the tea party favor, which is their end goal anyway.
| And finally, do you really take the polls as gospel? I don't |
Then why did you post it?
In this thread we have seen the president dispel the "tea party is racist" myth or premise as well as the vice-president and several forum members. So again, if it is not racism, then what is your big beef now with the movement?
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 07/22/2010 17:23:00 |
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NAACP: Klan with a tan.
