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ooh_child
New Member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 09:44:38 [Permalink]
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Bill, here are some quotes and links which may make you feel a little better about the funding of this exhibit:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/gog/profile/david-h.-koch-hall-of-human-origins,1160070/critic-review.html
From curator Rick Potts:
"This is not a classroom. Remember, the themes of the show are questions," Potts says. The scientific evidence is presented in such a way that most visitors can weigh it on the scale of the belief system they entered with. "We believe in putting all the fossil evidence out there," he says, "where everyone can see it."
According to Potts, the Smithsonian's view is that there need not be any disconnect between science and religion. In fact, if there's anything he hopes visitors will take away from the exhibition, it's what he calls a "sense of the sacred."
And here's a link to the website for the exhibit:
http://humanorigins.si.edu/
Check out the acknowledgements page and take note of the major contributor, David H. Koch. You may be familiar with him if you subscribe to libertarian philosophy & politics. I'm not saying that you do, but from reading what you post here I believe I may be correct in thinking in that direction.
Scroll down that page and notice some of the other supporters of this project - a few quite religious in nature.
Just wanted to inject some evidence that this project may not be as "atheistic" as you seem to believe. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 07/27/2010 : 09:46:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Bill Scott:
I have already said that it was my opinion that the federal government should not be in the business of promoting anyone's beliefs on human origins. |
The Smithsonian is not promoting any belief system. It is simply displaying the evidence that has been collected so far.
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Then why do the atheists have coronaries over manger settings at the courthouse at Christmas? It's simply displaying evidence for the life and death of the historical man Jesus Christ.
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Bill, back to lying for jesus again I see. Your intellectual bankruptcy and abject stupidity are still annoying.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 09:55:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Bill Scott:
I have already said that it was my opinion that the federal government should not be in the business of promoting anyone's beliefs on human origins. |
The Smithsonian is not promoting any belief system. It is simply displaying the evidence that has been collected so far.
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Then why do the atheists have coronaries over manger settings at the courthouse at Christmas? It's simply displaying evidence for the life and death of the historical man Jesus Christ.
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Because at that point they are promoting a specific belief system.
Is it really that difficult to comprehend the difference between what is a belief and what is not?
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While we may disagree on whether Jesus was divine essentially all scholars in the relevant fields agree that the existence of Jesus as a historical figure can be established using documentary and other evidence.
The historicity of Jesus concerns the historical existence of Jesus of Nazareth. While scholars often draw a distinction between the Jesus of history and the Christ of faith (and debate what specifics can be known concerning his character and ministry) essentially all scholars in the relevant fields agree that the existence of Jesus as a historical figure can be established using documentary and other evidence.
The lines of evidence used to establish Jesus' historical existence include the New Testament documents, theoretical source documents that may lie behind the New Testament, statements from the early Church Fathers, brief references in histories produced decades or centuries later by pagan and Jewish sources, gnostic documents, and early Christian creeds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
The first-century Roman Tacitus, who is considered one of the more accurate historians of the ancient world, mentioned superstitious “Christians” (from Christus, which is Latin for Christ), who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (Annals 15.44).
Flavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities he refers to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.” There is a controversial verse (18:3) that says, “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats....He was [the] Christ...he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.” One version reads, “At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. His conduct was good and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who became his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.”
Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18).
Pliny the Younger, in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were very ethical, and he includes a reference to the love feast and Lord’s Supper.
The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.
Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.
Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of His followers.
Then we have all the Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection, etc.) that all mention Jesus.
In fact, we can almost reconstruct the gospel just from early non-Christian sources: Jesus was called the Christ (Josephus), did “magic,” led Israel into new teachings, and was hanged on Passover for them (Babylonian Talmud) in Judea (Tacitus), but claimed to be God and would return (Eliezar), which his followers believed, worshipping Him as God (Pliny the Younger).
There is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, both in secular and biblical history. Perhaps the greatest evidence that Jesus did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in the first century A.D., including the twelve apostles, were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ. People will die for what they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a lie.
http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 10:09:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Bill, back to lying for jesus again I see. Your intellectual bankruptcy and abject stupidity are still annoying.
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And this only proves my observation that I noted on the "Tone" thread which is that discussions between theist and non-theist on a public forum always degenerate into name calling sooner or later. And with dude it is usually the first thing out of his mouth. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 10:11:42 [Permalink]
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Bill,
You seem to be shifting gears as far as the subject at hand goes but I'll play along.
Your "evidence" you posted is all great and everything but it does not address the major issues.
1. Virgin conception
2. Evidence of his "magical" feats
3. Evidence of Jesus' resurrection.
Here is what I "believe".
I "believe" that Jesus was most likely a real guy who walked around a couple of thousand years ago. Most myths start out with at least one fact that is accurate. That does not account for all of the supernatural accounts of his life. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 10:37:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Dude
Bill, back to lying for jesus again I see. Your intellectual bankruptcy and abject stupidity are still annoying.
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And this only proves my observation that I noted on the "Tone" thread which is that discussions between theist and non-theist on a public forum always degenerate into name calling sooner or later. And with dude it is usually the first thing out of his mouth.
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Your lies and intent are what set the "tone" bill. Stop lying and stop being willfully ignorant, these are the things that drag "debate" down. You don't get to claim the high ground when you engage in deliberate deciet.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 10:53:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
While we may disagree on whether Jesus was divine essentially all scholars in the relevant fields agree that the existence of Jesus as a historical figure can be established using documentary and other evidence. |
But the idea that Jesus was born around December 25th in a manger is an invention, a fantasy. So even if you want to go the "it can't be promoting religion if it really happened" route, manger scenes are out.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 11:22:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by Bill scott
While we may disagree on whether Jesus was divine essentially all scholars in the relevant fields agree that the existence of Jesus as a historical figure can be established using documentary and other evidence. |
But the idea that Jesus was born around December 25th in a manger is an invention, a fantasy. So even if you want to go the "it can't be promoting religion if it really happened" route, manger scenes are out.
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Fine. Then I will put up a replica of Christ on the cross. However, the atheist will still go into a coronary over this display on public ground, even though it is depicting an actual historical event. That's just the way they roll. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 11:23:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Dude
Bill, back to lying for jesus again I see. Your intellectual bankruptcy and abject stupidity are still annoying.
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And this only proves my observation that I noted on the "Tone" thread which is that discussions between theist and non-theist on a public forum always degenerate into name calling sooner or later. And with dude it is usually the first thing out of his mouth.
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Your lies and intent are what set the "tone" bill. Stop lying and stop being willfully ignorant, these are the things that drag "debate" down. You don't get to claim the high ground when you engage in deliberate deciet.
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And this only proves my observation that I noted on the "Tone" thread which is that discussions between theist and non-theist on a public forum always degenerate into name calling sooner or later. And with dude it is usually the first thing out of his mouth.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 11:29:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by Bill scott
While we may disagree on whether Jesus was divine essentially all scholars in the relevant fields agree that the existence of Jesus as a historical figure can be established using documentary and other evidence. |
But the idea that Jesus was born around December 25th in a manger is an invention, a fantasy. So even if you want to go the "it can't be promoting religion if it really happened" route, manger scenes are out.
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Fine. Then I will put up a replica of Christ on the cross. However, the atheist will still go into a coronary over this display on public ground, even though it is depicting an actual historical event. That's just the way they roll.
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And how great of a historical event was it really? Jesus was only one of thousands, possibly 10's of thousands of people who were crucified by the Romans. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 07/27/2010 : 11:55:20 [Permalink]
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All religions are the whelps of those who seek power over others. Thus, they re all cults, different only in magnitude and wealth. But they all sprang from humble beginnings and evolved -- the Pope walks in a cloud of incense wearing delicate, red shoes whilst Jesus wore battered sandals and probably reeked of sweat and goat.
It is remarkable to me that the ilk of Ken Ham can take the extensively studied fossil record and comment on it at all. These religious apologists have not done the first bit of serious examination of the subject beyond trying (and failing) to cram the history of the Earth into a miniscule time frame. In order to do this, they must baldly lie in the very face of the existing evidence. To get away with that, they must have brain-washed followers that will strive to brain-wash others. In this part of it, they have enjoyed some success. Their greatest ambition is to get their "teachings" into the public school science classes. That is the Holy Grail of the YECs, and thus far, they've failed.
But what if they should succeed? The ranks (and wealth) added to Ham's and other ministries would flourish and science would suffer.
I must disagree with Mr. Potts. Science and religion are no more compatible than fact and myth. Until the supernatural can be examined and tested, and indeed, displayed to the general public.... Oh, wait. Then it wouldn't be supernatural anymore, would it?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 12:00:16 [Permalink]
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Since billy wants to "debate" the "historicity" of jesus with cut/paste:
Link 1
Link 2
Link 3
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 12:10:29 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Ebone4rock |
| And how great of a historical event was it really? |
Maybe that is a conversation you and I can have in the not so distant future.
| Jesus was only one of thousands, possibly 10's of thousands of people who were crucified by the Romans. |
So if the birth and crucification of Jesus is recognized by most scholars as an historical event then what beef do the atheist have when these historical events are acknowledged on public grounds using public funds? This in no way promotes a belief system just as the bones in the Smithsonian are not promoting a belief system but are rather simply acknowledging an historical event. Not to mention the fact that unlike the Smithsonian no one is spending 20.7 million dollars of the people's tax monies to publicly acknowledge the historicity of Jesus. Considering their current debt load doesn't the federal government have more important things to do with those millions? |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 12:14:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Since billy wants to "debate" the "historicity" of jesus with cut/paste:
Link 1
Link 2
Link 3
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And this only proves my observation that I noted on the "Tone" thread which is that discussions between theist and non-theist on a public forum always degenerate into name calling sooner or later. And with dude it is usually the first, second and third thing out of his mouth.
BTW there is no debate as the historicity of Jesus has been well established.
The historicity of Jesus concerns the historical existence of Jesus of Nazareth. While scholars often draw a distinction between the Jesus of history and the Christ of faith (and debate what specifics can be known concerning his character and ministry) essentially all scholars in the relevant fields agree that the existence of Jesus as a historical figure can be established using documentary and other evidence.
The lines of evidence used to establish Jesus' historical existence include the New Testament documents, theoretical source documents that may lie behind the New Testament, statements from the early Church Fathers, brief references in histories produced decades or centuries later by pagan and Jewish sources, gnostic documents, and early Christian creeds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
Of course don't let any experts or scholars get in dudes way. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 07/27/2010 12:17:48 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 12:23:23 [Permalink]
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| BTW there is no debate as the historicity of Jesus has been well established. |
You are smoking crack. Seriously.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Ken Ham: not even a very good liar.
