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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 07/27/2010 : 12:28:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Fine. Then I will put up a replica of Christ on the cross. However, the atheist will still go into a coronary over this display on public ground, even though it is depicting an actual historical event. That's just the way they roll.
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Historically, thousands of people were executed by crucifixion. What secular reason would there be for singling out and honoring Jesus?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 07/27/2010 12:31:11 |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 12:40:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
essentially all scholars in the relevant fields agree that the existence of Jesus as a historical figure can be established using documentary and other evidence.[/b]
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A professor of divinity most likely would say that. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 13:00:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by Bill scott
Fine. Then I will put up a replica of Christ on the cross. However, the atheist will still go into a coronary over this display on public ground, even though it is depicting an actual historical event. That's just the way they roll.
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Historically, thousands of people were executed by crucifixion. What secular reason would there be for singling out and honoring Jesus?
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Well for starters, even if you reject his divine nature, the words, teachings and actions of Jesus have far and away effected the lives of more Americans throughout recorded history then the words and actions of any president, war hero, sport hero or any other man to walk the planet. No man has had as much influence on more Americans then the person of Jesus Christ. Billions have studied and modeled their life after his teachings since the founding of this nation and millions continue to do so to this very day and will continue to do so way beyond my life span. No one else is even close to this realm of influence over our nation. That's just a fact. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 13:03:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hawks
Originally posted by Bill scott
essentially all scholars in the relevant fields agree that the existence of Jesus as a historical figure can be established using documentary and other evidence.[/b]
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A professor of divinity most likely would say that.
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I would agree. But so did wikipedia and many secular scholars. Because the evidence is so overwhelming. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 07/27/2010 13:08:16 |
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ooh_child
New Member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 13:17:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by Ebone4rock |
| And how great of a historical event was it really? |
Maybe that is a conversation you and I can have in the not so distant future.
| Jesus was only one of thousands, possibly 10's of thousands of people who were crucified by the Romans. |
So if the birth and crucification of Jesus is recognized by most scholars as an historical event then what beef do the atheist have when these historical events are acknowledged on public grounds using public funds? This in no way promotes a belief system just as the bones in the Smithsonian are not promoting a belief system but are rather simply acknowledging an historical event. Not to mention the fact that unlike the Smithsonian no one is spending 20.7 million dollars of the people's tax monies to publicly acknowledge the historicity of Jesus. Considering their current debt load doesn't the federal government have more important things to do with those millions?
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Personally, the problem I have with Jesus being singled out for recognition is Jesus being singled out for recognition. Seems like whenever a government body opens up these types of displays to all comers it's the Christians who get all in a snit & either protest other religion's/group's participation, or vandalize other displays not to their liking. All or nothing, I say, and nothing seems much easier to present. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 13:26:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Well for starters, even if you reject his divine nature, the words, teachings and actions of Jesus have far and away effected the lives of more Americans throughout recorded history then the words and actions of any president, war hero, sport hero or any other man to walk the planet. No man has had as much influence on more Americans then the person of Jesus Christ. Billions have studied and modeled their life after his teachings since the founding of this nation and millions continue to do so to this very day and will continue to do so way beyond my life span. No one else is even close to this realm of influence over our nation. That's just a fact.
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Yes, and those teachings are the religion of Christianity, which the government is forbidden from promoting. And I don't think Jesus has had quite the influence you indicate. Nothing in our nation's laws or form of government has been derived from the teachings of Jesus. The natural philosopher John Locke was much, much more influential, for instance. Jesus is only important to Christians, which is not synonymous with Americans.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 13:30:02 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by ooh_child |
| All or nothing, I say, and nothing seems much easier to present. |
I would agree. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 13:36:20 [Permalink]
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I’m going to bring this back to where we started. This kind of debate can go off in several directions. I think we should resolve the one directly related to the OP before we start meandering. (Too late, I know, but hey.)
Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Kil
Bill Scott:
I have already said that it was my opinion that the federal government should not be in the business of promoting anyone's beliefs on human origins. |
Way to avoid your central thesis which is that science promotes an atheistic view. It doesn't.
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| Way to avoid your central thesis which is that science promotes an atheistic view. |
I never said that.
I agree.
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Well huh. The first time you said it was here:
Bill:
In this country the majority subscribe to a divine creator as the origin of all life as opposed to those in the minority, who don't. Both sides pay taxes. Our side no more wants tax money to be used to fund a museum display which is promoting an atheistic world view on the origin of man then the anti-theist wants tax money used to promote a theist world view on said origins. |
What the museum is portraying is the scientific evidence for the evolution of humans. And in your own words you called that “promoting an atheistic world view on the origin of man…”
I pointed out that science is neither theistic nor is it atheistic. And you have agreed on that point. So how then is the science exhibit at the Smithsonian unfair again?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 13:49:04 [Permalink]
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Bill,
I for one am very glad that you have the tenacity to debate this subject for such a long time. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to sharpen my debate skills. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 14:25:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by filthy
As we are all aware, the Smithsonian National Museum has opened a Human Origins exhibit and has neglected to mention anything about "God Doin' It."
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Here is the problem my filthy friend. In this country the majority subscribe to a divine creator as the origin of all life as opposed to those in the minority, who don't. Both sides pay taxes. Our side no more wants tax money to be used to fund a museum display which is promoting an atheistic world view on the origin of man then the anti-theist wants tax money used to promote a theist world view on said origins. I mean the anti-theists people have a coronary if a manger scene is displayed at a courthouse over Christmas but yet they don't see a problem using tax money to fund a museum scene depicting an atheistic world view on the origin man???? If the atheist people want to have a display in the public realm promoting their beliefs then let them fund it privately just as the Ken Ham people have done. Again, when you consider how ballistic the atheists get just when a town puts up a Merry Christmas sign I am a little surprised you are having trouble wrapping your mind around this one.
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Frankly Bill, I don't see any problem with this. Are we Christians for the truth or not? This is what the current science says how we became who we are today with most of these scientists being honest people doing science. It takes no faith to believe that heat transfers from a Hotter to Colder temperature. That is science. However it does take faith to believe that the Bible is the word of God, Jesus is the son of God and he was killed and resurrected. Government should be out of religion completely so you and I can worship how we wish. If the government can put a statue of the ten commandments on public property then they can put a statue of the Koran as well. Neither helps free worship but towards tyranny.
Just my 2 cents.
Edited to correct spelling and to say Ken Ham is a crook, no Christian should listen to him. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
| Edited by - Robb on 07/27/2010 14:29:31 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 14:41:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
So if the birth and crucification of Jesus is recognized by most scholars as an historical event then what beef do the atheist have when these historical events are acknowledged on public grounds using public funds? |
If it were simply an acknowledgment, I'd have no problem with it. But it isn't. It's a celebration of miracles.
Plus, they don't even use the right sort of cross.| Not to mention the fact that unlike the Smithsonian no one is spending 20.7 million dollars of the people's tax monies to publicly acknowledge the historicity of Jesus. Considering their current debt load doesn't the federal government have more important things to do with those millions? |
Good point. We should remove the tax-exempt status of all churches to reduce the deficit by billions of dollars.
You also wrote:Citing Wikipedia in support of your claim that "there is no debate?" Seriously?
I guess that will settle the evolution and AGW questions, then, once and for all. Right, Bill?
Really, the line you keep on quoting about "essentially all scholars" is referenced to Graham Stanton, who "was Lady Margaret's Professor of Divinity at Cambridge University," and thus not exactly an unbiased source. But what's even funnier is that at the top of the Historicity of Jesus Wikipedia page is written, "The neutrality of this article is disputed." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 14:52:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Great. So now you have no faith in your beliefs while I have faith in my beliefs. |
There's no need for faith when one has evidence.| I have already said that it was my opinion that the federal government should not be in the business of promoting anyone's beliefs on human origins. |
You're next going to say that the government shouldn't be in the business of teaching about the age of the Earth, right? Geology in general must be a taboo subject. As would be physics, optics, astronomy and cosmology. Oh, and it can't teach anything about the source of any language, either. Home Ec must be prohibited. And we just just flat-out forget about ethics classes at any state-run school.| They should rather take that money and pay some of their outstanding bills with it. |
Again: if the churches had to pay taxes, there'd be a lot fewer outstanding bills. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 14:54:14 [Permalink]
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originally posted by Dave W.
Good point. We should remove the tax-exempt status of all churches to reduce the deficit by billions of dollars.
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Oooooohhhhh Dave...This is a subject I have been fuming about. Another thread for another day though. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 14:55:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
It takes no faith to believe that heat transfers from a Hotter to Colder temperature. That is science. |
According to Bill's logic, it's just another belief and one which promotes an atheist worldview, too (by failing to mention that the Laws of Thermodynamics were created by God). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 15:01:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
(by failing to mention that the Laws of Thermodynamics were created by God).
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Well that is so obvious it does not need to be said. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Ken Ham: not even a very good liar.
