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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 08/28/2010 : 12:17:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
yeah, but Greg Laden already lost me on anything to do with this topic a few days ago.
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Is that really Greg Laden?
I mean, can we be sure someone hasn't hacked his account?
This is not what I expected to read from him...
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2010 : 17:46:03 [Permalink]
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So dglas (on Facebook, again) linked to this article and suggested that maybe now someone is actually starting the debate he wants. He could have had such a discussion here, as I go beyond Frank Schaeffer's "The Real Problem is Fundamentalism of Every Kind" to the real problem being faith itself (as I mentioned earlier in this very thread, so it seems dglas just wasn't paying attention). As far as I'm concerned, the difference between the most extreme fundamentalism and the most hands-offish form of deism is one of degree, and not a difference in kind.
But such a debate would have been much better in a different thread, because it's irrelevant to any discussion to be had about Park51 until you get to the point where you're willing to outlaw religion in general. Frank Schaeffer even says, "Who cares where some mosque is built? It's a meaningless event." dglas' singling out Islam for special disrespect was just as pointless. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2010 : 07:21:55 [Permalink]
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Orac again, CFI President Ronald Lindsay shows that he still doesn't get it on the "Ground Zero mosque":I do not have high hopes for the "revised" press release. I'm also rapidly coming to the conclusion that Ron Lindsay just doesn't get it and that as long as he's in charge of CFI, the organization is well and truly screwed. He appears to want to turn CFI into an atheist organization, and that is not what I signed on for. I want to be pro-science, pro-reason, and pro-critical thinking. I don't want to be anti-religion, but that's where Mr. Lindsay appears to want to take CFI. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2010 : 08:20:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Orac again, CFI President Ronald Lindsay shows that he still doesn't get it on the "Ground Zero mosque":I do not have high hopes for the "revised" press release. I'm also rapidly coming to the conclusion that Ron Lindsay just doesn't get it and that as long as he's in charge of CFI, the organization is well and truly screwed. He appears to want to turn CFI into an atheist organization, and that is not what I signed on for. I want to be pro-science, pro-reason, and pro-critical thinking. I don't want to be anti-religion, but that's where Mr. Lindsay appears to want to take CFI. |
Hell, I want to remain LOUDLY anti-religious. But I request -- nay, demand -- that my government be strictly neutral regarding religion.
I think CFI's Lindsay is way off the mark with this. He's closer to the Teabaggers than to my aggressively secularist atheism. Let any religion build their unholy temples of ignorance on private land. And then tax that land like other land is taxed. Tax the income of the religions like any other private for-profit racket is taxed.
If the mosque or Baptist church down the street is actually a gathering place for terrorists, send in the Marines with guns blazing. But don't EVER begin banning religions from building places of worship based entirely upon the bad behavior of other, unaffiliated, members of that general faith. That way inevitably leads to sectarian rule. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/29/2010 08:23:46 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2010 : 13:59:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Hell, I want to remain LOUDLY anti-religious. But I request -- nay, demand -- that my government be strictly neutral regarding religion. |
Yeah, but we don't need every pro-inquiry group to have a high priority on anti-religious themes. We've got American Atheists and the Freedom From Religion Foundation for that. We don't particularly need CfI and the NCSE dabbling in religion (and as Orac says, some people didn't sign up for that). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2010 : 14:25:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Hell, I want to remain LOUDLY anti-religious. But I request -- nay, demand -- that my government be strictly neutral regarding religion. |
Yeah, but we don't need every pro-inquiry group to have a high priority on anti-religious themes. We've got American Atheists and the Freedom From Religion Foundation for that. We don't particularly need CfI and the NCSE dabbling in religion (and as Orac says, some people didn't sign up for that).
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Do you suppose that at least to some extent, this explains why Kurtz was treated so poorly, as in "don't let the door hit you in the ass" poorly?
I really doubt that there are many members belonging to the CFI who are happy with that press release. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2010 : 15:43:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Do you suppose that at least to some extent, this explains why Kurtz was treated so poorly, as in "don't let the door hit you in the ass" poorly? |
Dunno. I still haven't gone deeply into who-did-what-to-whom in that dispute.| I really doubt that there are many members belonging to the CFI who are happy with that press release. |
I wonder how many of them are going to be unhappy enough to withdraw their support. I'm sure you've recently received the letter about the usual $800K donor only giving them $200K this year. Don't know if that has anything to do with Lindsay, Kurtz or just the recession, but I'd bet the press release regarding Park51 isn't doing them any fiscal favors. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend
Hong Kong
380 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2010 : 16:35:01 [Permalink]
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| I have not renewed my support...there's that, not hat I have 800K to throw around. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2010 : 21:05:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Hell, I want to remain LOUDLY anti-religious. But I request -- nay, demand -- that my government be strictly neutral regarding religion. |
Yeah, but we don't need every pro-inquiry group to have a high priority on anti-religious themes. We've got American Atheists and the Freedom From Religion Foundation for that. We don't particularly need CfI and the NCSE dabbling in religion (and as Orac says, some people didn't sign up for that).
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I agree entirely. It's not their specialty. (And they do a terrible job of it.) |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2010 : 14:26:39 [Permalink]
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PZ weighs in: I don't like the Manhattan mosque, but they've got the right - as long as I've got the right to point and laugh. It's pretty good, except for one notable rough spot:There's much to be said for a plan that would scoop up Phil Johnson, Lou Engle, Pat Robertson, the hierarchy of the Catholic church, the leadership of the Discovery Institute, and every tinpot crank preaching a generic fundie gospel in a converted grocery store and throw them into prison... but again, we lose our democratic soul if we lose our tolerance for stupid ideas. The First Amendment isn't about tolerance for stupid ideas. I have no tolerance for stupid ideas, but I still argue for the First Amendment because it protects unpopular ideas, including some very, very smart ideas that (for example) people in power might not like.
A commenter points to this: Incident at Orleans County mosque leads to arrest of five teens:Five Holley teens were accused Tuesday of disturbing worship at an Orleans County mosque, and witnesses said the incident was the most frightening in years-long harassment.
Police say the teenagers drove past World Sufi Foundation Mosque in Carlton on Monday yelling obscenities, beeping car horns and firing a gun, and allegedly struck one worshipper with a vehicle. So again, the site doesn't matter. The above mosque was clear across New York State from Ground Zero. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2010 : 15:37:58 [Permalink]
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I think, when he says "tolerance for stupid ideas", he is saying that you can't use government to tell people that they can't have a stupid idea. You have to allow anyone and everyone the right to think and say what they like.
That's how I read it anyway. Seems obvious given the context and title, where he is explicitly stating he reserves the option to criticize (point and laugh).
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2010 : 16:59:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
I think, when he says "tolerance for stupid ideas", he is saying that you can't use government to tell people that they can't have a stupid idea. You have to allow anyone and everyone the right to think and say what they like.
That's how I read it anyway. Seems obvious given the context and title, where he is explicitly stating he reserves the option to criticize (point and laugh). |
Well, I'm pretty sure the Founding Fathers would agree that thought police are still a far-off dream. What's being protected - the principle at stake - is the free expression of ideas, not simply having them.
My point is really that "tolerance of stupid ideas" was a bad way to word the ideal. I think I would have said, "...we lose our democratic soul if we lose our determined protection of free expression." Because it's not about tolerance, it's about protecting ourselves. But maybe I'm just editing too much. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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I… WTF…?
