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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
 Posted - 11/04/2010 : 10:38:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
By all means, let's have a civil discussion. But lets not premise it on falsehoods.
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Then let the discussion start here. The reason I don't think President Obama worked with the republicans is that none of their propositions were even considered. The Democrats wanted the republicans to vote for it without compromising on anything substantial. The only thing Obama said he would consider from the republicans was tort reform and abortion. Tort reform went nowhere and the abortion language did not even get into the bill. The democrats refused to start from anything but the already written 2400+ page bill. That was a non starter for the republicans because conservatives will never go for forcing Americans to buy a service. As long as the mandatory language was in there no conservative would ever vote for it. These ideas were never considered by the President or the democrats: http://www.gop.gov/solutions/healthcare
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2010 : 10:49:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Fripp
I could go on and on, but let me say that this is the fall of the American Empire, and I hope it comes sooner rather than later.
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America is not an empire, it is a democratic republic. Your use of the term empire is deceitful.
| The term empire derives from the Latin imperium (power, authority). Politically, an empire is a geographically extensive group of states and peoples (ethnic groups) united and ruled either by a monarch (emperor, empress) or an oligarchy |
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2010 : 11:06:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Why is this a negative agenda? |
Because it's entirely about being against things.| These are what conservatives believe and want for this country. What should she say instead? Why can't we discuss these things without hatred, race cards etc.? |
Because you're not discussing them. You're just saying that conservatives are in favor of them, which we all knew already, and complaining about nasty name-calling. The real problem is that the "solution" Bachmann states will not do what Bachmann says it will. Discuss that, instead of whining about being insulted, and I'll agree that you're standing by your stated principles. Here, I'll start:Are you aware that most conservatives
do not want higher taxes |
Of course. But without massive spending reductions accompanying the tax cuts, the deficit and the economy will only get worse, not better, and there will be fewer jobs, not more (especially more unemployed civil servants). This is relatively simple math. Reaganomics failed, prosperity does not "trickle down" because most rich people who get tax cuts increase their savings, not their spending. So how will keeping taxes cut improve the economy and reverse job losses? Please note that nobody's talking about cutting taxes more, they're advocating keeping taxes at the same levels they were when the economy tanked, so if these tax levels are supposed to spur job growth, then they should already have done so.| do not think the federal government has the power to force people to buy a private product through coercion |
And how will that principle fix the economy and increase available jobs? Bachmann says it will. How?| do not believe illigal immigrants should get amnesty |
And how will that principle fix the economy and increase available jobs? Bachmann says it will. How?
Here's what she says, for reference (starts at 2:10):Well, the plan that I've been talking about all through this election is really four things and I would encourage the new Republican leadership to take this on as the agenda in 2011 and it's very simple.
It's keep the current tax policy so no one has increased taxes. Number two, we need to put a full-scale repeal of Obamacare passed through [sic] the House, hopefully it can get through the Senate. And then number three, we need to make sure that we secure the United States' borders. And number four, we need to make sure that we don't have a huge increase in national energy tax.
Those are the four issues that the American people want the Congress to deal with, because they want to get certainty back into the economy. What this election shows is that people believe in this country, they love free enterprise, they love capitalism, and they want to make sure we have jobs moving forward. That's job number one. How does voting conservative on those four issues "get certainty back into the economy" or "make sure we have jobs moving forward?" This is an agenda proposed for 2011 by a well-known, long-time elected Federal legislator. How will her solution, which she thinks should be adopted by the whole Republican party, function to meet her stated goals?
Your turn, Robb. Let's speak civilly, and also without evasion. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2010 : 11:21:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
America is not an empire, it is a democratic republic. Your use of the term empire is deceitful.
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No, it's called hyperbole, in this case used for dramatic effect. Interesting that you pull the one quote that you can easily "debunk".
Have you got those quotes with sources, when Obama "constantly insulted republicans"?
In regards to your claim of "no working with the republicans at all for the last two years", did you note the copious examples that both Kil and Dave posted that show quite clearly the inverse? |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2010 : 19:19:09 [Permalink]
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Robb:
Then let the discussion start here. The reason I don't think President Obama worked with the republicans is that none of their propositions were even considered. The Democrats wanted the republicans to vote for it without compromising on anything substantial. |
I think it’s time to bring some historical perspective to the “Obamacare” debate. Here is the Republican Health Care plan from 1993. You know. Back when the Republicans were socialists…
Summary Of A 1993 Republican Health Reform Plan
It’s very similar to “ObamaCare”. For example there is this provision:
| Subtitle F: Universal Coverage - Requires each citizen or lawful permanent resident to be covered under a qualified health plan or equivalent health care program by January 1, 2005. Provides an exception for any individual who is opposed for religious reasons to health plan coverage, including those who rely on healing using spiritual means through prayer alone. |
That’s now being called unconstitutional by some of the sponsors of the same bill that they once supported, and socialist to boot. I guess the definition of socialism has changed over the past 17 years. Some of the socialists who sponsored the bill are guys like Bob Dole, Orrin Hatch, Arlen Specter, Ted Stevens, Richard Lugar, and so on…
While there have been complaints from the Right that the Democrats have become more liberal, socialist even, perhaps they just look that way from the fairly new far right perspective of the Republican party. What was once conservative politics and policy is now seen as radical left politics by many of the same people who supported pretty much the same healthcare bill that they rejected this time because “It’s a government takeover of healthcare.”
Robb, tell me. If the Democrats, and Obama were not compromising with the Republicans, or trying to anyhow, what happened to the public option that the majority of Americans favored? As far as I can tell, the thrust of the Republican plan is tort reform and allowing people to purchase insurance across state lines. Why have they turned their backs on their own ideas? You know. What they now call Obamacare? What do you suppose their motive is?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2010 : 20:38:09 [Permalink]
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How many more times can we emphasize that, Kil?
Even if Robb were correct that the Democrats did no compromising whatsoever (which he's not), they wound up passing A REPUBLICAN HEALTH-CARE PLAN.
Oh, wait. They didn't "pass" it, they rammed it down the throats of the American People. Nevermind that the American People are generally in favor of every individual piece of "Obamacare," but have been instructed to dislike the entire thing.
(And don't get me started - again - on how our representatives aren't supposed to just be doing whatever it is the American People want, but instead actually be active representatives of their particular constituencies.) |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2010 : 21:29:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
How many more times can we emphasize that, Kil?
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Until it takes?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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podcat
Skeptic Friend
435 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2010 : 21:41:22 [Permalink]
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That could take a while...
Compromise means both sides have to give up something. The Republican leadership doesn't want to compromise, they've said so from day one. |
“In a modern...society, everybody has the absolute right to believe whatever they damn well please, but they don't have the same right to be taken seriously”.
-Barry Williams, co-founder, Australian Skeptics |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2010 : 21:58:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by podcat
The Republican leadership doesn't want to compromise, they've said so from day one. |
And they've reiterated it since Tuesday. One Republican Congresscritter (I forget who) stated it outright: there will be smooth sailing if the Democrats do what "the American People" want, and "conflicts" otherwise.
What was unsaid, of course, was that the Republicans are the only ones who know what "the American People" want, and so get to be sole judges of what will pass Congress. So the only compromise the GOP is interested in one-way. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2010 : 22:26:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by podcat
The Republican leadership doesn't want to compromise, they've said so from day one. |
And they've reiterated it since Tuesday. One Republican Congresscritter (I forget who) stated it outright: there will be smooth sailing if the Democrats do what "the American People" want, and "conflicts" otherwise.
What was unsaid, of course, was that the Republicans are the only ones who know what "the American People" want, and so get to be sole judges of what will pass Congress. So the only compromise the GOP is interested in one-way.
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Yep.
McConnell Eases Talk of a Thaw
WASHINGTON — Senator Mitch McConnell, the minority leader, said Thursday that “the only way” his party would succeed in advancing its agenda was to ensure that President Obama was defeated in two years, seemingly bringing a quick end to post-election professions from both sides about working together.
Even as President Obama announced that he had invited Congressional leaders of both parties to meet him this month to discuss the legislative agenda for the rest of the year, Senate Republicans were flexing their muscles in the new playground of divided government, scrambling to fill leadership posts, announcing a legislative agenda and warning their Democratic counterparts to change their ways or else.
Mr. McConnell’s comments about Mr. Obama — echoing a line he used before the election — suggested that he had heard the no-compromise message coming from the most conservative members of his party and that he intended to wage an aggressive battle in the Senate even though Republicans failed on Tuesday to gain a majority there… |
So he’s said it again. Imagine if you will that those hired to govern decided that their number one priority isn’t getting good legislation passed, but getting rid of the president by refusing to compromise on anything. I don’t know how anyone can defend a position like that one, but I’m sure some will see it as downright patriotic.
They come right out and say it, and people like Robb still think it’s the Democrats who won’t play ball…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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podcat
Skeptic Friend
435 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2010 : 22:51:48 [Permalink]
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| And Obama saying that he wants to work with Republicans drives me nuts.... :P |
“In a modern...society, everybody has the absolute right to believe whatever they damn well please, but they don't have the same right to be taken seriously”.
-Barry Williams, co-founder, Australian Skeptics |
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podcat
Skeptic Friend
435 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2010 : 23:33:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
America is not an empire, it is a democratic republic. Your use of the term empire is deceitful.
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Actually, no.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Empire |
“In a modern...society, everybody has the absolute right to believe whatever they damn well please, but they don't have the same right to be taken seriously”.
-Barry Williams, co-founder, Australian Skeptics |
| Edited by - podcat on 11/04/2010 23:37:04 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2010 : 05:08:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
They come right out and say it, and people like Robb still think it’s the Democrats who won’t play ball…
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Or the $200,000,000 a day Obama's trip to Indonesia is supposed to cost. I have started seeing that repeated by some of my conservative friends on FB. It's been the diarrhea of conservative noise makers for 2 days. Kil, I believe you nailed it in one of your other comments in this thread, "Fox News (and I'd like to add AM talk radio) is toxic to thinking". |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2010 : 06:26:35 [Permalink]
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Wow, pod, good catch. I wish I could take credit for that, but apparently others have been surmising the same thing far longer than my pathetic little take on it...
Sooo, Robb thinks my use of a word (i.e. "empire") is "deceitful", but...
"Obama is constantly insulting republicans" and "Obama hasn't tried to work with the republicans" -- two claims or concepts/ideas (both of which are clearly false) are not deceitful?
Fascinating.
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"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
| Edited by - Fripp on 11/05/2010 06:32:32 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2010 : 08:02:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by Kil
They come right out and say it, and people like Robb still think it’s the Democrats who won’t play ball…
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Or the $200,000,000 a day Obama's trip to Indonesia is supposed to cost. I have started seeing that repeated by some of my conservative friends on FB. It's been the diarrhea of conservative noise makers for 2 days. Kil, I believe you nailed it in one of your other comments in this thread, "Fox News (and I'd like to add AM talk radio) is toxic to thinking".
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Darn. I heard that debunked last night, but I can't remember the source. Turns out it's all baloney...
I just did a quick search. This in from http://factcheck.org/
Trip to Mumbai
…The hard-to-swallow claim originated with a Nov. 2 Press Trust of India article quoting an unnamed "top official" in the government of Maharashtra (one of India’s states). The source was quoted as saying that Obama’s upcoming trip to Mumbai will cost $200 million per day for security and living arrangements, among other things. The story claimed that the president would be accompanied by about 3,000 people, including Secret Service agents, government officials and journalists, and will stay at the Taj Mahal Hotel — the scene of a 2008 terrorist attack.
We find stories based on anonymous sources always deserve special caution, especially when they come from only one news organization. In this case, the anonymous official is not even in the U.S. government, and any information about costs would necessarily have come second-hand at best, an added reason for caution.
Nevertheless, the story was widely repeated without any additional reporting. Soon after the article was released, The Drudge Report — a news aggregation website — linked to the Press Trust of India article, with the headline "REPORT: US to spend $200 million per day on Obama’s Mumbai visit…" Later that day, Rush Limbaugh claimed on his radio show that "Five hundred seven rooms at the Taj Mahal, 40 airplanes, $200 million a day this nation will spend on Obama’s trip to India." He repeats the "$200 million a day" claim several times throughout the show without specifying its source… |
And this from CNN:
Debunking the myth: The cost of Obama's trip to Asia
Just about every news source is calling the story bogus. But people like Michele Bachmann, Rush, and the Fox propaganda machine are still pushing it because they don’t really care if the story is baloney.
"A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes."- Mark Twain
Edited to add: I don't have to time to pursue this, but get a load of what Glen Beck is saying about the trip...
http://www.politicususa.com/en/beck-obama-india |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Election day
