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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 01/13/2011 : 12:44:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Kil
Boy. Is this a dumb debate. Who cares what Bill thinks gives meaning to life? What he calls "meaning" is purely subjective unless he is willing to dig up studies that support his contention. Where are the studies, using empirical evidence, that suggest that atheists have no meaning in their lives or that their lives can have no meaning? Talk about miss-using a word!!!
I don't really care that Bill can't possibly find such studies, just as I don't care that I'm a germ, just as Bill is, living on the side of a tiny rock in a vast universe. (There is empirical evidence to support that, by the way. Just look at the cosmos.)
If it requires the belief in an afterlife or a supreme law giver to give your life meaning, than many of mans greatest achievements down here on this tiny rock amount to nothing. And as far as the universe goes, they do amount to nothing. But here on earth, for those of us with a curiosity for how things work and some creative spark, there is whatever meaning that we assign to ourselves and all of those who came before us. Bill's "meaning" is no different than anyone else's. He just can't locate it within himself.
Again, this debate (if that's what it is) is dumb.
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Who needs a fliping study to know that no meaning can ever be assigned to nothingness? Can you assign meaning to nothingness, Kil? Say no.
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If nothingness didn't mean something, you couldn't use the word in any meaningful sentence. Of course, you, Billy, can't use most words in meaningful sentences anyway, so its no surprise you can't figure this one out.
But you should take a step back here Billy. Because if you insist that there is some objective meaning to life then you have to be able to support that with evidence. You also have to be aware that such thinking is dangerous ground for you and your ilk. Once you decide that you know what the meaning of life is, and are convinced your answer is the only possible answer, then you come into conflict with just about every other person in the world.
Wars have been fought over less.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
 Posted - 01/13/2011 : 12:55:48 [Permalink]
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Bill:
Who needs a fliping study to know that no meaning can ever be assigned to nothingness? Can you assign meaning to nothingness, Kil? Say no. |
Well, yes.
Nothingness
noth·ing·ness
[nuhth-ing-nis]
–noun
1.
the state of being nothing.
2.
something that is nonexistent: a view of humanity as suspended between infinity and nothingness.
3.
lack of being; nonexistence: The sound faded into nothingness.
4.
unconsciousness or death: She remembered a dizzy feeling, then nothingness.
5.
utter insignificance, emptiness, or worthlessness; triviality: The days followed one another in an endless procession of nothingness.
6.
something insignificant or without value. |
I pretty much like the last definition (or meaning, if you will) of nothingness because it accurately describes both your point and this debate.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 14:21:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| There is no "atheistic model of the universe," |
Sure there is. |
You can say so all you like, it won't make it magically become true. Atheism is a lack of theism, and that doesn't entail any particular model of the universe at all.| that "nothingness is the final destination for all living entities." |
What is your belief then and what is that based upon? |
My belief is "I don't know what's going to become of the universe" and I base that on the fact that cosmologists aren't yet in agreement on any particular fate for it.| I don't know of anything which "begins with nothingness," so I don't see why I need to start with such a condition. |
Atheism starts and ends with nothing. |
No, it's just a lack of faith in any gods. If an emtpy bed is not nothing, then a lack of belief is not nothing, either.| Who said these were my rules? |
You haven't said that they're anyone else's rules, so I assumed you were making them up as you go along.| In the nothingness of atheism all your assigned meanings will be rendered meaningless. |
You haven't demonstrated that yet.| The fallacy was you trying to assign meaning to nothingness by pointing to kids, beds, cars and on-ramps. |
And you're trying to assign meaning to nothingness (according to you) by pointing to my beliefs.Not yet. You haven't said anything new here.| Doesn't matter, since A is still false. |
But it is not. |
Again: it won't magically become true just because you say it is.| But what meaning does Christianity provide? |
First thing is first. |
Nice evasion.| So you agree than that atheism renders all life meaningless, right? |
Of course not, at least one of your premises is incorrect, so your conclusion cannot be trusted.Also:
Bizarre how you can jump so quickly from philosophy to empiricism. Empiricism doesn't touch at all on the sort of "meaning" that we're discussing (which is a philosophical meaning), and so it cannot possibly be true that "it is an empirical truth" that a person cannot assign meaning to nothingness. |
Yet you could not provide menaing to nothingness when you attempted to do so. Care to try again? |
Why should I? You're the one failing to make a logical argument and futilely trying to back it up with an empirical foundation for "meaning." The ball is still in your court. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 14:27:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
To give you the short answer God created man for His pleasure and for man to fellowship with the God of glory. |
That offers meaning to you? To socialize with and be a plaything for God gives your life purpose? That's it? How tremendously petty, selfish and self-loathing of you.| But more to the point of our discussion, the only way we can assign meaning to life is with a God who is creator of all life. |
That's not in evidence.| If naturalistic forces using only materialism are responsible for all life then our life will be rendered meaningless, no matter how bad we want to assign meaning to it. |
That's not in evidence.| I thought you guys were the ones who accepted reality as is? Why than is it so hard for you to accept this simple truth? |
Because nobody has demonstrated it to be true.| Atheism renders all life meaningless, period. |
It's like a mantra for you now, isn't it? You can't support your argument, so you just repeat the conclusion over and over, desperately wishing it would come true. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 14:47:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Please Bill, explain how your God gives your life meaning and purpose. I am very interested in getting a perspective on that subject.
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To give you the short answer God created man for His pleasure and for man to fellowship with the God of glory.
But more to the point of our discussion, the only way we can assign meaning to life is with a God who is creator of all life. If naturalistic forces using only materialism are responsible for all life then our life will be rendered meaningless, no matter how bad we want to assign meaning to it. I thought you guys were the ones who accepted reality as is? Why than is it so hard for you to accept this simple truth? Atheism renders all life meaningless, period.
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Holy sheepshit. Have fun being considered a toy for your god. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 15:46:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
To give you the short answer God created man for His pleasure...
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Good at pleasuring God, are you, Bill?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 17:32:10 [Permalink]
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emphasis added.
Originally posted by Bill scott
Edit to add: Let me add that I did not come to this conclusion because I was scared or was not scared. Nor am saying that because Atheism renders all life meaningless that this is evidence for theism. I am saying that Atheism ultimately renders all life meaningless because Atheism ultimately renders all life meaningless.
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Nice tautology. Of course your whole argument has been one, this was just concise. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 07:26:21 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Robb |
| Bill, of course people's lives that do not believe in God have meaning. |
If the universe has been created by God then yes their lives do have meaning. If the universe has been created through complete materialism and naturalist forces then not only does the atheist's life have no meaning but all life is rendered meaningless.
| They can assign whatever meaning they want to their lives just as I can. |
I have never argued that point. I only said if the universe has been created by God then yes their lives do have meaning. But if the universe has been created through complete materialism and naturalist forces then not only does the atheist's life have no meaning but all life is rendered meaningless.
| Does the child of atheist think that their parents have no meaning? |
Depends on the child I suppose.
| Other people make our lives have meaning. |
In a universe created through complete materialism by naturalistic forces not only do our lives have no meaning but so do the others who's life we gathered some meaning from.
| I do agree with you that I get meaning in my life from God but why can you have no meaning without God? |
A universe created through complete materialism by 100% naturalistic forces is a universe created without purpose, without reason and with absolutely no meaning. Therefore all life attached to said universe was also created without purpose, without reason and with no meaning. This is not that difficult to understand.
So again please don't get confused with what I am saying here. I am not saying at all that in a universe created by God that all Atheists lives are meaningless. I am saying in a universe created through materialism by 100% naturalistic forces ALL LIFE is ultimately rendered meaningless, purposeless and without reason.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 08:02:29 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
As usual it comes down to a game of semantics with you Dave so let's just cut to the chase here:
A. If the universe were created by God then it can be said that this universe was created with reason, meaning and purpose. Therefore the life created by the same God will have meaning, purpose and reason. What this purpose is is irrelevant at this point.
B. If the universe were created through materialism using complete naturalistic forces then it can be said that the universe was created without purpose, without reason and without meaning. Therefore all life created by the same forces was created without meaning, reason or purpose.
Now please, I know you would anyway, show me where you find error in A or B and share if you have a possible C explanation for the creation of the universe. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 01/14/2011 08:06:56 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9697 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 08:34:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
A universe created through complete materialism by 100% naturalistic forces is a universe created without purpose, |
Since we haven't explored and figured out how the universe came to being yet, what forces was behind it, it's premature to draw any conclusion about purpose. There may or may not be a purpose, that's why it's wrong to assign "no meaning"; it's jumping the gun on non-existent evidence.
| Therefore all life attached to said universe was also created without purpose, without reason and with no meaning. This is not that difficult to understand. |
Since the premise above is wrong, this conclusion about meaninglessness of life is also wrong.
| I am not saying at all that in a universe created by God that all Atheists lives are meaningless. |
I can't speak for anyone else, but at least I never thought you were.
| I am saying in a universe created through materialism by 100% naturalistic forces ALL LIFE is ultimately rendered meaningless, purposeless and without reason. |
And repeating this mantra doesn't make it true. It only makes me wonder why it is so important for you. It's like you're using the mantra as a shield to keep you from realising something important.
I can see the danger you are in: if you acknowledge there can be meaning without God, then why believe in God? It's the first step of losing your faith.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 08:53:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by Dave W. |
As usual it comes down to a game of semantics with you Dave so let's just cut to the chase here:
A. If the universe were created by God then it can be said that this universe was created with reason, meaning and purpose. Therefore the life created by the same God will have meaning, purpose and reason. What this purpose is is irrelevant at this point.
B. If the universe were created through materialism using complete naturalistic forces then it can be said that the universe was created without purpose, without reason and without meaning. Therefore all life created by the same forces was created without meaning, reason or purpose.
Now please, I know you would anyway, show me where you find error in A or B and share if you have a possible C explanation for the creation of the universe. |
(bolding mine)
The simple fact is Bill that your theory (along with all theistic theories) is that it is all philosophy and no substance. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 09:20:25 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse |
| Since we haven't explored and figured out how the universe came to being yet, what forces was behind it, it's premature to draw any conclusion about purpose. There may or may not be a purpose, that's why it's wrong to assign "no meaning"; it's jumping the gun on non-existent evidence. |
Regardless of what forces were behind the creation of the universe if they were completely naturalistic then the universe and the life those forces created are without purpose, meaning and reason. Now if you have a possible explanation for the creation of the universe that has the creative forces as something other then completely materialistic/naturalistic than go ahead and share and we can look at that explanation on it's on two feet. But if your explanation is based on materialism through naturalism then it is a universe without meaning.
| Since the premise above is wrong, this conclusion about meaninglessness of life is also wrong. |
But you do not know that it is wrong. You just said so up above. You said that we do not know. So for all you know I am right.
| And repeating this mantra doesn't make it true. It only makes me wonder why it is so important for you. It's like you're using the mantra as a shield to keep you from realising something important. |
So paint me a possible scenario where materialism through naturalism has created a universe with life for a purpose and with reason. It's an oxymoron.
| I can see the danger you are in: if you acknowledge there can be meaning without God, then why believe in God? It's the first step of losing your faith. |
Demonstrate meaning for anything apart from God. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 09:21:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by Dave W. |
As usual it comes down to a game of semantics with you Dave so let's just cut to the chase here:
A. If the universe were created by God then it can be said that this universe was created with reason, meaning and purpose. Therefore the life created by the same God will have meaning, purpose and reason. What this purpose is is irrelevant at this point.
B. If the universe were created through materialism using complete naturalistic forces then it can be said that the universe was created without purpose, without reason and without meaning. Therefore all life created by the same forces was created without meaning, reason or purpose.
Now please, I know you would anyway, show me where you find error in A or B and share if you have a possible C explanation for the creation of the universe. |
(bolding mine)
The simple fact is Bill that your theory (along with all theistic theories) is that it is all philosophy and no substance.
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What great nugget of information have you offered to me that was not the same? |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 09:45:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by Dave W. |
As usual it comes down to a game of semantics with you Dave so let's just cut to the chase here:
A. If the universe were created by God then it can be said that this universe was created with reason, meaning and purpose. Therefore the life created by the same God will have meaning, purpose and reason. What this purpose is is irrelevant at this point.
B. If the universe were created through materialism using complete naturalistic forces then it can be said that the universe was created without purpose, without reason and without meaning. Therefore all life created by the same forces was created without meaning, reason or purpose.
Now please, I know you would anyway, show me where you find error in A or B and share if you have a possible C explanation for the creation of the universe. |
(bolding mine)
The simple fact is Bill that your theory (along with all theistic theories) is that it is all philosophy and no substance.
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What great nugget of information have you offered to me that was not the same?
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I haven't. That is because I don't have the energy to refute your claims line by line. I'm a simple fella. I will most times break things down to the basics. The more intellectual folks here have been giving you some good logic though. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 09:55:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
As usual it comes down to a game of semantics with you Dave so let's just cut to the chase here:
A. If the universe were created by God then it can be said that this universe was created with reason, meaning and purpose. Therefore the life created by the same God will have meaning, purpose and reason. What this purpose is is irrelevant at this point.
B. If the universe were created through materialism using complete naturalistic forces then it can be said that the universe was created without purpose, without reason and without meaning. Therefore all life created by the same forces was created without meaning, reason or purpose.
Now please, I know you would anyway, show me where you find error in A or B and share if you have a possible C explanation for the creation of the universe. |
Since you deny that people can give anything purpose or meaning, I don't see how God could do so, either. You've already declared that it's impossible to give meaning to nothingness, but that's what God started with.
If it is possible to give meaning or purpose to something, then your B statement is simply false. What begins with no purpose can be given a meaning and so won't necessarily end with no purpose.
I can turn an otherwise useless, purposeless rock into a weapon, for example. Likewise, we can take the universe and give it some meaning, regardless of how it started out.
Of course, you'll just declare this assignation of meaning to be "impossible" again, without logical or empirical reasoning, as always. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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I hope these aren't the first shots in a civil war
