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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 01/14/2011 : 09:57:46 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Ebone4rockI |
| I haven't. That is because I don't have the energy to refute your claims line by line. I'm a simple fella. I will most times break things down to the basics. |
I can't get any more basic then "materialism through naturalism as the creating forces of the universe creates a universe without meaning, purpose or reason". Even the simple man can fully understand this. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 10:26:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by Ebone4rockI |
| I haven't. That is because I don't have the energy to refute your claims line by line. I'm a simple fella. I will most times break things down to the basics. |
I can't get any more basic then "materialism through naturalism as the creating forces of the universe creates a universe without meaning, purpose or reason". Even the simple man can fully understand this.
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Oh Bill, I'm even simpler than that. I actually totally agree with your quoted sentence. As I explained before in the grand scheme of things there is no meaning and purpose but because we are sentient being with intellect and emotion it is up to the individual to give his/her life meaning and purpose. Does it matter after a person is dead? No....but it can matter to future generations.
Yes it is merely philosophy but it makes a whole lot more sense than the long drawn out crap you are coming up with. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 11:24:56 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| Since you deny that people can give anything purpose or meaning, |
Never said that. I said in the universe that is created by materialism through naturalism ultimately people's assigned meaning is rendered meaningless. In the universe created by God people can assign meaning to loved ones because those people were created with meaning.
| I don't see how God could do so, either. |
Because an infinite God has the same limitations has finite man, right?
| You've already declared that it's impossible to give meaning to nothingness, but that's what God started with. |
If the universe was created by God then there has never been nothingness. God is eternal so even before the universe existed there was God. The fact that it took an act of God's will to create the universe demonstrates purpose, reason and meaning for said universe. Materialism and naturalism do not create through an act of their will and so therefore would create without reason, without meaning and without purpose.
| If it is possible to give meaning or purpose to something, then your B statement is simply false. |
It's only possible to give meaning or purpose in the universe created by God. In the universe created by materialism through naturalism the B statement stands true.
| What begins with no purpose can be given a meaning and so won't necessarily end with no purpose. |
Can you give me an example of something beginning with no purpose that has meaning?
| I can turn an otherwise useless, purposeless rock into a weapon, for example. |
But if you do not know how how the universe began to exist than you cannot possible know that the rock began its existence with or without a purpose. Your just assuming here based on what you believe.
| Likewise, we can take the universe and give it some meaning, regardless of how it started out. |
No, you can't. You can't give it "some" meaning let alone give it full meaning. Just because Dave assigns meaning to the universe/life that was created for no reason at all by materialism through naturalism does not mean that the universe now has meaning just because Dave said so. Now if you personally had created the universe through an act of your will then the universe/life would have meaning that could be assigned by you.
| Of course, you'll just declare this assignation of meaning to be "impossible" again, without logical or empirical reasoning, as always. |
I would probably say the assigning of meaning was meaningless rather than impossible, if the universe was created by materialism through naturalism that is. If the universe was created by God then we have meaning, purpose and reason. Or if Dave created the universe then we have reason, purpose and meaning as well. Materialism through naturalism then not so much.
Now are we going to keep the conversation to "God created the universe with purpose vs. Materialism through naturalism created the universe with no purpose" or do you have a C you want to offer? |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 11:26:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by Ebone4rockI |
| I haven't. That is because I don't have the energy to refute your claims line by line. I'm a simple fella. I will most times break things down to the basics. |
I can't get any more basic then "materialism through naturalism as the creating forces of the universe creates a universe without meaning, purpose or reason". Even the simple man can fully understand this.
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Oh Bill, I'm even simpler than that. I actually totally agree with your quoted sentence. As I explained before in the grand scheme of things there is no meaning and purpose but because we are sentient being with intellect and emotion it is up to the individual to give his/her life meaning and purpose. Does it matter after a person is dead? No....but it can matter to future generations.
Yes it is merely philosophy but it makes a whole lot more sense than the long drawn out crap you are coming up with.
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Dude if the "grand scheme of things" was created by materialism through naturalism without purpose then little ol you ain't gonna add any purpose to it. There is no trickle up effect for meaning. Now if God created the universe with purpose then your life and decisions have meaning. This is a simple concept so you should be getting it. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 11:39:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by Ebone4rockI |
| I haven't. That is because I don't have the energy to refute your claims line by line. I'm a simple fella. I will most times break things down to the basics. |
I can't get any more basic then "materialism through naturalism as the creating forces of the universe creates a universe without meaning, purpose or reason". Even the simple man can fully understand this.
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Oh Bill, I'm even simpler than that. I actually totally agree with your quoted sentence. As I explained before in the grand scheme of things there is no meaning and purpose but because we are sentient being with intellect and emotion it is up to the individual to give his/her life meaning and purpose. Does it matter after a person is dead? No....but it can matter to future generations.
Yes it is merely philosophy but it makes a whole lot more sense than the long drawn out crap you are coming up with.
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Dude if the "grand scheme of things" was created by materialism through naturalism without purpose then little ol you ain't gonna add any purpose to it. There is no trickle up effect for meaning. Now if God created the universe with purpose then your life and decisions have meaning. This is a simple concept so you should be getting it.
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I must not be articulating clearly.
These are two different subjects.
Grand scheme of all space and time = No meaning or purpose
For individual sentient beings = Make your own meaning and purpose....which only matters emotionally and intellectually to the individual. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 12:28:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by Ebone4rockI |
| I haven't. That is because I don't have the energy to refute your claims line by line. I'm a simple fella. I will most times break things down to the basics. |
I can't get any more basic then "materialism through naturalism as the creating forces of the universe creates a universe without meaning, purpose or reason". Even the simple man can fully understand this.
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Oh Bill, I'm even simpler than that. I actually totally agree with your quoted sentence. As I explained before in the grand scheme of things there is no meaning and purpose but because we are sentient being with intellect and emotion it is up to the individual to give his/her life meaning and purpose. Does it matter after a person is dead? No....but it can matter to future generations.
Yes it is merely philosophy but it makes a whole lot more sense than the long drawn out crap you are coming up with.
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Dude if the "grand scheme of things" was created by materialism through naturalism without purpose then little ol you ain't gonna add any purpose to it. There is no trickle up effect for meaning. Now if God created the universe with purpose then your life and decisions have meaning. This is a simple concept so you should be getting it.
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I must not be articulating clearly.
These are two different subjects.
Grand scheme of all space and time = No meaning or purpose
For individual sentient beings = Make your own meaning and purpose....which only matters emotionally and intellectually to the individual.
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You articulated just fine. I just responded by pointing our that if the meaning and purpose that the individual assigns to his life does not align with reality (grand scheme of all time and space) then the exercise was meaningless. I am not saying the individual will not get warm emotional and/or intellectual fuzzys from assigning meaning to their life. But if the meaning assigned by the individual contradicts reality, or the grand scheme of things as you call it, then the meaning that was assigned is meaningless. Like I said meaning does not trickle from the bottom up. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 12:41:06 [Permalink]
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originally posted by[/i] Bill scott
You articulated just fine. I just responded by pointing our that if the meaning and purpose that the individual assigns to his life does not align with reality (grand scheme of all time and space) then the exercise was meaningless. I am not saying the individual will not get warm emotional and/or intellectual fuzzys from assigning meaning to their life. But if the meaning assigned by the individual contradicts reality, or the grand scheme of things as you call it, then the meaning that was assigned is meaningless. Like I said meaning does not trickle from the bottom up. |
It is unnecessary for an individual's meaning or purpose to align with the universe therefore it is not meaningless.
I found out what my "special purpose" was when I was a teenager.
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Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
| Edited by - Ebone4rock on 01/14/2011 12:44:50 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 13:21:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
It is unnecessary for an individual's meaning or purpose to align with the universe therefore it is not meaningless. |
If the universe was created by materialism through naturalism then not only is it unnecessary but it is impossible "for an individual's meaning or purpose to align with the universe" becasue the universe has no meaning or purpose which renders your assigned meaning and purpose as meaningless and purposeless. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 13:49:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
It is unnecessary for an individual's meaning or purpose to align with the universe therefore it is not meaningless. |
If the universe was created by materialism through naturalism then not only is it unnecessary but it is impossible "for an individual's meaning or purpose to align with the universe" becasue the universe has no meaning or purpose which renders your assigned meaning and purpose as meaningless and purposeless.
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Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 14:15:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
If the universe was created by materialism through naturalism then not only is it unnecessary but it is impossible "for an individual's meaning or purpose to align with the universe" becasue the universe has no meaning or purpose which renders your assigned meaning and purpose as meaningless and purposeless.
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WHAT?!?!?! |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 14:17:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
It is unnecessary for an individual's meaning or purpose to align with the universe therefore it is not meaningless. |
If the universe was created by materialism through naturalism then not only is it unnecessary but it is impossible "for an individual's meaning or purpose to align with the universe" becasue the universe has no meaning or purpose which renders your assigned meaning and purpose as meaningless and purposeless.
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Dude I am not saying individuals cannot assign meaning to their life and whatever else it is that they want to assign meaning to. I don't doubt for a minute that they can get warm fuzzys from this assigned meaning and hold fast to it until their dying day. What I am saying is that in the "grand scheme" of the materialistic/naturalistic created universe all meaning, including any added by you, will be rendered meaningless. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 14:30:44 [Permalink]
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The universe doesn't give a rats ass about us. It never has and it never will.
So what?
All of this garbage about meaning is just a semantics game. I helped to create a website that allows Bill to tell me that my life has no meaning. Whatever... Don't you think that I know that I'm worm food, Bill? So are you, but you will never know it because you will be just as dead as me once our time comes. You will be gone from this planet, same as me. The only difference is I will not have spent my time here making plans to live forever, because as much as death may scare me, it doesn't scare me out of my ability to reason.
Enjoy whatever meaning you think your life has, Bill. And I'll do the same. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26024 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 16:11:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| Since you deny that people can give anything purpose or meaning, |
Never said that. I said in the universe that is created by materialism through naturalism ultimately people's assigned meaning is rendered meaningless. |
Now who's playing semantic games? How is what you said substantively different from what I said?| In the universe created by God people can assign meaning to loved ones because those people were created with meaning. |
Prove it.| Because an infinite God has the same limitations has finite man, right? |
Prove that God is infinite.| You've already declared that it's impossible to give meaning to nothingness, but that's what God started with. |
If the universe was created by God then there has never been nothingness. |
Pretty big "if."| God is eternal so even before the universe existed there was God. |
Is God eternal?| The fact that it took an act of God's will to create the universe demonstrates purpose, reason and meaning for said universe. |
Really? You've never done anything just for the hell of it?| Materialism and naturalism do not create through an act of their will and so therefore would create without reason, without meaning and without purpose. |
Creating through an act of will doesn't imply reason, meaning or purpose.| It's only possible to give meaning or purpose in the universe created by God. |
So you keep saying, without providing any evidence or proof.| In the universe created by materialism through naturalism the B statement stands true. |
So what you're trying to prove is one of your premises, and it's all nicely circular.| What begins with no purpose can be given a meaning and so won't necessarily end with no purpose. |
Can you give me an example of something beginning with no purpose that has meaning? |
I already did: a rock turned into a weapon.| I can turn an otherwise useless, purposeless rock into a weapon, for example. |
But if you do not know how how the universe began to exist than you cannot possible know that the rock began its existence with or without a purpose. Your just assuming here based on what you believe. |
Nice semantic dodge, there.
What purpose does God give to rocks?| Likewise, we can take the universe and give it some meaning, regardless of how it started out. |
No, you can't. You can't give it "some" meaning let alone give it full meaning. |
What? Where did that distinction come from? Oh, right: you're just moving the goalposts.
Besides, the "full" meaning that you've stated is horrible.| Just because Dave assigns meaning to the universe/life that was created for no reason at all by materialism through naturalism does not mean that the universe now has meaning just because Dave said so. |
It has meaning for me and everyone who might agree with me.| Now if you personally had created the universe through an act of your will then the universe/life would have meaning that could be assigned by you. |
As you keep endlessly repeating.| Of course, you'll just declare this assignation of meaning to be "impossible" again, without logical or empirical reasoning, as always. |
I would probably say the assigning of meaning was meaningless rather than impossible, if the universe was created by materialism through naturalism that is. |
Yes, I know already. The trick for you is to prove it.| If the universe was created by God then we have meaning, purpose and reason. |
And sucky ones, at that.| Or if Dave created the universe then we have reason, purpose and meaning as well. |
Not necessarily.| Materialism through naturalism then not so much. |
Sigh.| Now are we going to keep the conversation to "God created the universe with purpose vs. Materialism through naturalism created the universe with no purpose" or do you have a C you want to offer? |
Again: the latter is what you're trying to prove. You can't use it as a premise, then. You need to demonstrate that a universe created through naturalistic means can never have any reason, purpose or meaning assigned to it by its denizens. It's not self-evident. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 19:31:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
A. If the universe were created by God then it can be said that this universe was created with reason, meaning and purpose. Therefore the life created by the same God will have meaning, purpose and reason. What this purpose is is irrelevant at this point.
B. If the universe were created through materialism using complete naturalistic forces then it can be said that the universe was created without purpose, without reason and without meaning. Therefore all life created by the same forces was created without meaning, reason or purpose.
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C. If God provides meaning to life and God was created by man, then man provides meaning to life.
edited to add a word |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
| Edited by - moakley on 01/14/2011 19:32:57 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26024 Posts |
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I hope these aren't the first shots in a civil war
