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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 23:38:33 [Permalink]
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Ok, Bill...are you saying that you believe in god because you'll feel all bad and "purposeless" if you don't believe in god?
You do realize that's not only fallacious, but that's stupid, right? Since when has "but I want it to be true" or "I'll feel badly if it's not true" ever been a reason to believe in anything?
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 01/15/2011 : 03:20:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
If the universe was created by materialism through naturalism then not only is it unnecessary but it is impossible "for an individual's meaning or purpose to align with the universe" becasue the universe has no meaning or purpose which renders your assigned meaning and purpose as meaningless and purposeless.
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As far as I've been able to tell, there seems to be no "meaning" nor "purpose" in nature. These words are only useful in describing the perceptions and intentions of humans (and by extension, any other sentient beings). We humans, since time immemorial, have looked at other humans, animals, plants and objects around us and have tried to either surmise or assign meaning and purpose to them. But these meanings and purposes are subjective human constructs, not inherent qualities of the things in our environment.
Meaning and purpose, as human constructs, are not outside us, but within. We can have have purpose, and we do. We can assign personal and cultural meaning to our surrounds, and we do. We don't require any kind of "trickle down" permission from either a material universe or from a deity. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2011 : 07:55:14 [Permalink]
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And now, Michael Coren's reaction:
| Oh how we love liberal self-righteousness. It looks like poor Gabrielle Giffords is, thank God, going to pull through. By the way, if she does and if she’s not too wounded and damaged by her experience, she will surely become President. Her tragedy is awful; her tragedy’s exploitation by the hypocritical left is almost as bad. Here is good old lefty former Congressman Paul Kanjorski writing in the New York Times after the shooting: |
In case you're wondering, the guy that Coren quotes does fit the hypocrite bill. Crap, read it!
So of course, he generalizes.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 01/15/2011 07:57:01 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9691 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2011 : 14:59:08 [Permalink]
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Coren in is a fucking idiot. The only reason he's on TV is because there are idiots who are dumb enough to listen to him and think he's got anything worth-while to say. Delusional, the bunch of them...
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2011 : 21:02:06 [Permalink]
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Some more examples of rhetoric:
Glenn Beck.
| Since then, alleged attacker Byron Williams has said in jailhouse interviews that he wanted to "start a revolution." He says Beck was not the direct cause of his turning violent. But he does say: "I would have never started watching Fox News if it wasn't for the fact that Beck was on there. And it was the things that he did, it was the things he exposed that blew my mind." |
Coulter.
John Hawkins: You've caught a lot of heat for a couple of quotes you made. In your column three days after 9/11, you said, "We know who the homicidal maniacs are.They are the ones cheering and dancing right now. We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity." You also said in an interview with the New York Observer, "My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times Building." Do you stand by those quotes or do you think that perhaps you should have phrased them differently?
Ann Coulter: Ozzy Osbourne has his bats, and I have that darn "convert them to Christianity" quote. (Thank you for giving the full quote. I have the touch, don't I?) Some may not like what I said, but I'm still waiting to hear a better suggestion.
RE: McVeigh quote. Of course I regret it. I should have added, "after everyone had left the building except the editors and reporters." |
Someone else's opinion of this stuff.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 01/15/2011 21:10:07 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2011 : 07:06:25 [Permalink]
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| The universe doesn't give a rats ass about us. It never has and it never will. |
In a universe created by materialism through naturalism I would agree.
Than said universe is a universe without meaning.
| All of this garbage about meaning is just a semantics game. I helped to create a website that allows Bill to tell me that my life has no meaning. Whatever... Don't you think that I know that I'm worm food, Bill? So are you, but you will never know it because you will be just as dead as me once our time comes. You will be gone from this planet, same as me. |
In a universe created by materialism through naturalism I would agree. But others here continue to insist that they can assign meaning in a universe created by materialism through naturalism.
| The only difference is I will not have spent my time here making plans to live forever, because as much as death may scare me, it doesn't scare me out of my ability to reason. |
I did not come to this conclusion via fear. I came to the conclusion because in a universe created by materialism through naturalism you have no meaning.
| Enjoy whatever meaning you think your life has, Bill. And I'll do the same. |
In a universe created by God yes we could, but in a universe created by materialism through naturalism not so much. You just said so.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 01/16/2011 07:16:20 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2011 : 07:10:37 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| Really? You've never done anything just for the hell of it? |
"Just for the hell of it” is a reason.
Bill: Dave, why on earth would you do that?
Dave: Just for the hell of it.
| Creating through an act of will doesn't imply reason, meaning or purpose. |
It sure does.
| It's only possible to give meaning or purpose in the universe created by God. |
So you keep saying, without providing any evidence or proof. |
In a universe created by materialism through naturalism you have no meaning. Go ask Kil and he will tell you that I am right here. If God created the universe you have purpose, reason and meaning. If you have a C: explanation/hypothesis for the origin of the universe then share here.
| Can you give me an example of something beginning with no purpose that has meaning? |
I already did: a rock turned into a weapon. |
But you failed to demonstrate that rocks were created with no purpose. You acknowledge that you have no definitive idea how the universe was created, therefore you have no knowledge, at all, that rocks were created without purpose.
| What purpose does God give to rocks? |
If God created the universe, and rocks, then they have meaning, reason and purpose. What the purpose is is irrelevant for this conversation. Only in the universe created by materialism through naturalism could a rock exist without purpose and meaning. But definitively you don’t know if the universe was created by (a) God or if it was created by materialism through naturalism so you have no idea if rocks have purpose or not. You have your beliefs and that is all.
| No, you can't. You can't give it "some" meaning let alone give it full meaning. |
What? Where did that distinction come from? Oh, right: you're just moving the goalposts. |
The universe has meaning or it does not.
| If the universe was created by God then we have meaning, purpose and reason. |
And sucky ones, at that. |
Well the sucky part is just your opinion but here you acknowledge that God creates with purpose and reason. Materialism through naturalism does not. Again, if you have a C: then here is where you bring it up.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 01/16/2011 07:19:54 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2011 : 07:11:47 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by moakley |
| C. If God provides meaning to life and God was created by man, then man provides meaning to life. |
D: If Moakley and/or Dave created man and the universe then he/they provides the reason and purpose for the universe.
But, if materialism through naturalism is the creator than no meaning reason or purpose. Just ask Kil
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2011 : 07:14:15 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by the_ignored |
| Ok, Bill...are you saying that you believe in god because you'll feel all bad and "purposeless" if you don't believe in god? |
No, I am not saying that at all. I am saying materialism creates through naturalism without meaning becasue it does. Discuss this with kill and you will see. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 01/16/2011 07:31:02 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26024 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2011 : 08:18:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
"Just for the hell of it” is a reason.
Bill: Dave, why on earth would you do that?
Dave: Just for the hell of it. |
Pure semantics.| Creating through an act of will doesn't imply reason, meaning or purpose. |
It sure does. |
So you say, but haven't demonstrated. | It's only possible to give meaning or purpose in the universe created by God. |
So you keep saying, without providing any evidence or proof. |
In a universe created by materialism through naturalism you have no meaning. Go ask Kil and he will tell you that I am right here. |
Argument from authority.| If God created the universe you have purpose, reason and meaning. |
Not demonstrated.| If you have a C: explanation/hypothesis for the origin of the universe then share here. |
False dichotomy.| But you failed to demonstrate that rocks were created with no purpose. |
This objection assumes your conclusion.| You acknowledge that you have no definitive idea how the universe was created, therefore you have no knowledge, at all, that rocks were created without purpose. |
You haven't demonstrated the positive case.| If God created the universe, and rocks, then they have meaning, reason and purpose. What the purpose is is irrelevant for this conversation. |
No, actually, the fact that you refuse to divulge the reason, purpose or meaning for rocks indicates that you don't know if there is one.| Only in the universe created by materialism through naturalism could a rock exist without purpose and meaning. |
That's your undemonstrated conclusion, again.| But definitively you don’t know if the universe was created by (a) God or if it was created by materialism through naturalism so you have no idea if rocks have purpose or not. |
And neither do you, it appears.| You have your beliefs and that is all. |
"I don't know" is a belief like "bald" is a hair color.| The universe has meaning or it does not. |
And you also think it either has "some" meaning or "full" meaning, but are now backpedaling.| Well the sucky part is just your opinion but here you acknowledge that God creates with purpose and reason. |
No, I only acknowledge that you think God exists, but cannot demonstrate it. My "sucky reasons" comment was just snark. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2011 : 09:48:16 [Permalink]
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Me:
Enjoy whatever meaning you think your life has, Bill. And I'll do the same. |
Bill
In a universe created by God yes we could, but in a universe created by materialism through naturalism not so much. You just said so. |
What I said is that I give my life whatever meaning I assign to it, same as you do. And there is nothing in the argument you have presented that changes that.
As for the universe, yeah, it doesn’t give a rats ass about either of us.
And even if you are correct about your version of a creator, than both our lives still have the same meaning because we will both be judged. In the meantime, we are both giving our lives whatever meaning that we ourselves assign to it.
So this discussion boils down to a silly metaphysical debate that ultimately changes nothing at all, no matter what...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2011 : 10:31:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by the_ignored |
| Ok, Bill...are you saying that you believe in god because you'll feel all bad and "purposeless" if you don't believe in god? |
No, I am not saying that at all. I am saying materialism creates through naturalism without meaning becasue it does. Discuss this with kill and you will see.
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I ask again: Since when does you wanting to believe in something have any bearing on whether it's true or not.
In other words...why are you always complaining about there being no meaning to life if your god doesn't exist? Even if "materialism creates through naturalism without meaning becasue it does", so what? Whether the universe has "meaning" is irrelevent to how it actually got here! Understand? Read the link I posted earlier to the fallacy site and see where your thinking is going wrong.
The current topic (the original one's long been sidelined it seems) seems to be whether your god created the universe. That's it. Not about whether you'd prefer that he be the universe's creator because only some outside force can give your life "meaning". |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 01/16/2011 10:37:25 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2011 : 14:28:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by moakley |
| C. If God provides meaning to life and God was created by man, then man provides meaning to life. |
D: If Moakley and/or Dave created man and the universe then he/they provides the reason and purpose for the universe.
But, if materialism through naturalism is the creator than no meaning reason or purpose. Just ask Kil
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You asked for a C. I gave you a C. You gave us a D. straight from middle school. Deal with the C. it has a high probability of being true. Yes, I saw Kil's response and once I am dead I agree with it. But I am not dead yet so I plan on making the best of the time I have.
Edited to add: Looks like Kil and I might well be in complete agreement.
What I said is that I give my life whatever meaning I assign to it, same as you do. And there is nothing in the argument you have presented that changes that.
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Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
| Edited by - moakley on 01/17/2011 06:11:52 |
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I hope these aren't the first shots in a civil war
