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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
 Posted - 01/12/2011 : 21:27:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Dave W.
What sort of "meaning" or "purpose" does Christianity give to anyone? |
I know you really do not want an answer, so why ask? |
No, I'm actually really curious. From what I've read - from the Bible and apologists for it - the bottom line is that one's purpose is to serve God as a part of God's unknowable plan. I can't figure out how that provides "meaning" to one's life, since the conclusion is already known. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 05:13:22 [Permalink]
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| I thought the Presidents speech was great. The media needs to start talking and investigating what happened there and telling those stories. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 06:20:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
It seems to me that the fundamental difference between atheists and believers is that atheists take responsibility for themselves when it comes to giving their lives meaning and purpose. Believers cannot take that responsibility.
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Well said. |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 06:54:33 [Permalink]
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| You forgot the * at the end. There are lots and lots of atheists who have faith-based beliefs, pagans, witches, buddists etc., there are probably more believer-atheists than skeptic-atheists. They shouldnt get a pass. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 07:22:29 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| In the two premises, A and B. The conclusion (C) would be false if either premise were wrong, but both are, so it's a double-whammy for your logic. |
I will re-word A: to tie everything together nice and tight for you. (see below)
| A: Atheism ends in nothingness. |
This is false for two reasons. One, atheism doesn't "end." |
I see your point so please allow me to revise the premis.
A: In the Atheistic model of the universe nothingness is the final destination for all living entities.
| Second, it denies that anyone has any influence on anything in the universe. |
No it does not. It just shows that any influence on anything in the universe is ultimately rendered meaningless.
| B: Nothingness always renders meaninglessness. |
Nothingness can be absolutely chock-full of meaning. If I check on my kid at night and find nothing in his bed, I am first filled with dread. |
But you are not giving meaning to nothingness. You have a bed, you have a kid, you have yourself who is searching for a reason and your assigning meaning to this arrangement. That is not nothingness. And the kid is not nothingness, he is just missing for the time being. In order to give meaning to nothingness you have begin with nothingness, which you do not. All you did was give an example of where something was not where you thought it should be. Something is a fry cry from nothing or nothingness.
| On the other hand, if I roll down the on-ramp to a normally-congested highway and find nothing, I get a smooth and much happier ride home. |
But this is not starting with nothingness. You have your car, you have the ramp, you have the reason your getting on the ramp and you have the other cars on the road who just don't happen to be on the ramp at that time. You are not starting with nothing here. Dude it is imposable to give meaning to true nothingness. Think about this for awhile and you will see that I am right here. So B stands unrevised.
B: Nothingness always renders meaninglessness.
| What meaning one might find in any particular instance of nothingness is entirely dependent upon the context, so your generalization is utterly false. |
What is utter false is your notion that you can assign meaning to true nothingness. It's utterly impossible. Beginning with true nothingness you don't even have anything to assign meaning to. So after closer review we see the logic stands:
A: In the Atheistic model of the universe nothingness is the final destination for all living entities.
B: Nothingness always renders meaninglessness.
C: Therefore atheism renders all life meaningless.
Edit to add: Let me add that I did not come to this conclusion because I was scared or was not scared. Nor am saying that because Atheism renders all life meaningless that this is evidence for theism. I am saying that Atheism ultimately renders all life meaningless because Atheism ultimately renders all life meaningless. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 01/13/2011 07:44:01 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 07:32:07 [Permalink]
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| So what? Why is it required to have meaning? To make insecure folks feel better about themselves? It is what it is, if there is no meaning, we're not gonna pretend just to make ourselves feel better...Also you are making overly braod statements about atheists as if we are some sort of cohesive supergroup, see my post above. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 08:10:57 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf |
| So what? Why is it required to have meaning? |
In an atheistic/materialistic universe not only is no meaning required but it is actually imposable to assign any meaning to anything, in the atheistic/materialist universe.
| To make insecure folks feel better about themselves? |
It's you guys who seem to insist that you can assign meaning to your lives in an atheistic universe and also seem to get all bent out of shape just because I point out this obvious truth that you cannot. A few here have acknowledged this obvious truth, which is that atheism renders all life meaningless.
| It is what it is, if there is no meaning, we're not gonna pretend just to make ourselves feel better... |
There is no "if", atheism renders all life meaningless, period. And yet some still insist (maybe they are scared or insecure) that they can give meaning to their life.
| Also you are making overly braod statements about atheists as if we are some sort of cohesive supergroup, |
I am not making any broad statements. All I did was make an obviously true observation about atheism, which is that it renders all life meaningless. You guys are the ones who seem to be struggling with this empirical truth. Just acknowledge the empirical and let's move on. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 08:14:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Fripp
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
It seems to me that the fundamental difference between atheists and believers is that atheists take responsibility for themselves when it comes to giving their lives meaning and purpose. Believers cannot take that responsibility.
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Well said.
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Sorry guys, but in the atheistic universe it is imposable for you to assign any meaning to your life, or anything else for that matter. Sorry if you do not like this but it is an empirical truth. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 08:29:22 [Permalink]
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You may not like this guy but he is doing a great thing, watch his special announcement video. He is giving air time on his radio show to the westboro baptist church family and in return they will not picket at the funerals in Tuscon AZ.
http://www.facebook.com/Gallagher.Mike#!/Gallagher.Mike |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 08:32:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Fripp
Trust me, we're just as happy as you are. We just don't need a god to "give" us happiness.
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Actually, happier.
Remember, I've tasted both worlds, and I can confidently say that I'm much happier as an atheistic agnostic than I was as an evangelical Christian.
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"Happy" is simply an emotion. I have no doubts at all that some Atheists are "happier" than some Theists. But being "happy" does not assign meaning to life. Heck at the end the atheistic believers life even the "happy" days are ultimately rendered meaningless. So it really is kind of a pseudo happiness anyway because in the back of your mind you know it is all meaningless and ends in nothingness. So eat drink and be merry my atheistic friend for tomorrow you shall die. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 08:41:06 [Permalink]
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| Actually Bill I could care less about your epirical truth, what annoys me is your implication that this truth is somehow a bad thing or that you are better off in your fantasy world with meaning. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 08:58:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Sorry guys, but in the atheistic universe it is imposable for you to assign any meaning to your life, or anything else for that matter. Sorry if you do not like this but it is an empirical truth.
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Bill, you wouldn't know "empirical" if it bit you in the ass. Don't presume to tell me whether or not I have meaning in my life. I don't cower in fear that my "master" might not let me into heaven.
Bill, what exactly are you "hoping" for? What is the "meaning" of your life? |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
| Edited by - Fripp on 01/13/2011 09:08:23 |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 09:29:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Fripp
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
It seems to me that the fundamental difference between atheists and believers is that atheists take responsibility for themselves when it comes to giving their lives meaning and purpose. Believers cannot take that responsibility.
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Well said.
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Sorry guys, but in the atheistic universe it is imposable for you to assign any meaning to your life, or anything else for that matter. Sorry if you do not like this but it is an empirical truth.
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Hogwash Bill. I believe your use of the word "empirical" is just a way for you to keep from having to provide any kind of evidence for your statement.
Let me try to explain Bill. In the grand scheme of space and time, yes I suppose you could say that life is meaningless and without purpose. Seeing as we are sentient beings though we have intellect and emotions that are very much real (this is an example of an empirical truth). For this reason meaning and purpose to life are attainable.
To quote the band Sublime " Life is too short so love the one you got cuz you might get run over or you might get shot." |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
| Edited by - Ebone4rock on 01/13/2011 09:30:20 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 09:40:37 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Fripp |
| Bill, you wouldn't know "empirical" if it bit you in the ass. |
Apparently it is you who does not know, that is if you still reject the truth that atheism renders all life meaningless.
| Don't presume to tell me whether or not I have meaning in my life. |
It is not presumption it is just the reality of your situation if this is an atheistic/materialist universe. Just acknowledge what we both already know, which is that atheism renders all life, including yours, meaningless, and then lets move on.
| I don't cower in fear that my "master" might not let me into heaven. |
Good. And neither do I.
| Bill, what exactly are you "hoping" for? What is the "meaning" of your life? |
First thing first. Are you yet ready to acknowledge that atheism renders all life, including yours, meaningless? Because if not than it is meaningless for me to answer your question. Well in the atheistic universe it is meaningless for me to answer your question anyway as all things in the atheistic universe are meaningless. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 09:44:36 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf |
| Actually Bill I could care less about your epirical truth, |
But it is not MY empirical truth. It is just an empirical truth.
| what annoys me is your implication that this truth is somehow a bad thing or that you are better off in your fantasy world with meaning. |
Those are your implications and not mine. I clearly stated more than one time that I am not presenting this is as evidence for theism, nor do I claim that by default Christians are happier people than Atheists. I just pointed out that this observation was an empirical fact because it was. It's you guys who seem to struggle with this fact and still try to assign meaning to your life and then when you realize that you cannot you get all bent out of shape and want to make sure that I know that you don't care if your life has no meaning. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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I hope these aren't the first shots in a civil war
