|
|
|
Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 14:59:27 [Permalink]
|
I'm going to agree on one point with Bill. Yep, life is meaningless...if you are talking about in the grand scheme of all space and time....but it does not have to be meaningless for the individual while they are alive here on Earth.
|
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
 |
|
|
moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
 Posted - 01/12/2011 : 15:11:52 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Bill scott
A. It is my belief that we all have eternal life. The question that remains is where will this eternal life be spent? With or separated from our Creator.
B. Where we spend eternity is not based on us keeping a set of rules. If so we would all be spending eternity separated from our creator. Accepting or rejecting God's grace is what determines our final destination. Those heading for an eternity with their creator are not doing so based on works but rather based on accepting God's already finished work on our behalf.
|
That's the beauty of faith. It's unfortunate that god's grace can only be recognized by seeing through the eye of faith. Where faiths only requirement for something to be true is that it be believed. I see your problem with this argument as how do you define and measure god's grace.
Besides, I suspect that if a creator god exists it is going to be quite happy with skeptics and disturbed by sellers of faith. So where ever there is, by what ever name, I'm sure he has a place for me. Like I said, that's the beauty of faith. 
Look, one more time, you can assign meaning to your life all you want. Heck, it might even give you nice warm fuzzes to do so, but at the end of atheism waits nothingness, and nothingness ultimately renders meaninglessness, every time. It's an empirical fact.
|
Yes I can assign meaning. I don't need something that can't be shown to exist to derive meaning. And no meaninglessness is not a fact it is your fear. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26030 Posts |
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 15:26:35 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by Bill scott
One more time, nice and slow and from the top, now repeat after me: Atheism leads to nothingness and nothingness renders meaninglessness 100% of the time. Therefore your life is meaningless just as you acknowledged a few lines up. |
I'm jumping in late here, but the above is pretty ridiculous. I won't speak for anyone but myself, but to assert that because I don't follow some sadistic god then my life is therefore meaningless is a totally ridiculous-- but not unexpected-- statement.
|
Well you are entitled to your opinion, but where do you find a flaw in the logic?
A: Atheism ends in nothingness.
B: Nothingness always renders meaninglessness.
C: Therefore atheism renders all meaningless.
|
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 15:33:55 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
I'm going to agree on one point with Bill. Yep, life is meaningless...if you are talking about in the grand scheme of all space and time....but it does not have to be meaningless for the individual while they are alive here on Earth.
|
| I'm going to agree on one point with Bill. Yep, life is meaningless... |
Actually I said that in an atheistic/naturalistic universe life is rendered meaningless.
| but it does not have to be meaningless for the individual while they are alive here on Earth. |
Sure it does. Even if you assign meaning it still ends in nothingness, which always renders meaningless. So in the end your added meaning is still rendered meaningless, in the atheistic/naturalistic universe. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 15:46:29 [Permalink]
|
| Originally posted by moakley |
| Yes I can assign meaning. |
Yes you can assign meaning to nothingness, but it still does not give meaning to nothingness, no matter how bad you want it to.
| I don't need something that can't be shown to exist to derive meaning. |
I never said that you did. I said that:
A: Atheism ends in nothingness. This is a fact.
B: Nothingness ends in meaninglessness. This is a fact.
C: Therefore atheism renders all meaningless. Just another pesky fact.
| And no meaninglessness is not a fact it is your fear. |
This is nothing but your misguided opinion.
|
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
|
|
|
Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 15:53:31 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Bill scott
Yes you can assign meaning to nothingness, but it still does not give meaning to nothingness |
Exactly. I/we didn't say it gave meaning except in our subjective sense.
Remember, just because you imagine that G-diddy assigned meaning, that doesn't mean that there is meaning. You just imagine there is. |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26030 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 15:58:00 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Bill scott
Well you are entitled to your opinion, but where do you find a flaw in the logic? |
In the two premises, A and B. The conclusion (C) would be false if either premise were wrong, but both are, so it's a double-whammy for your logic.| A: Atheism ends in nothingness. |
This is false for two reasons. One, atheism doesn't "end." It's not a chain of thought or a "worldview" that brings anything to any conclusions, it's just an adjective. It describes an absence of theism, and nothing more. Millions of Buddhist atheists still believe in reincarnation, eternal cycles of life and whatnot.
Second, it denies that anyone has any influence on anything in the universe. That's not for you to decide, but for those who might be affected to decide. Ebone's "the grand scheme of things" is the wrong context in which to be examining atheism, since atheism isn't about "the grand scheme of things." Hell, no individual Christian matters in "the grand scheme of things," so by your logic, Bill, your beliefs "render all meaningless." Of course I disagree, and think that Christianity is nihilistic as much as atheism is nihilistic (not at all).| B: Nothingness always renders meaninglessness. |
Nothingness can be absolutely chock-full of meaning. If I check on my kid at night and find nothing in his bed, I am first filled with dread. On the other hand, if I roll down the on-ramp to a normally-congested highway and find nothing, I get a smooth and much happier ride home. What meaning one might find in any particular instance of nothingness is entirely dependent upon the context, so your generalization is utterly false. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 16:58:11 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Bill scott
Last time, I am taking "meaningless" as "something with no meaning" or "something without meaning."
|
No shit, captain obvious
But even what you choose to make meaningful for you ends in nothingness, which ends in meaninglessness. Just a fact fripp. |
Once more: I know.
But yet you keep claiming that your life has meaning. You can't have it both ways, as your trying to do here.
|
No. I give my life meaning. It only has whatever meaning I give it. I don't depend on an almighty super-dude with almighty superpowers to say "this is your reason for living. This life is a dry run for the next one."
It's similar to some people see art; but I see a soup can. I love long-track speedskating, others would rather watch paint dry.
You think meaning is an objective thing, that it's here whether we see it or not.
Meaning is not objective, it is subjective. "Meaning is in the eye of the beholder". I know that whatever meaning I give something will vaporize as soon as I depart.
You just agreed in the last sentence that nothingness renders meaninglessness and now your flip flopping saying that you assign meaning to your life again. |
One more time. Nothing here has any reason or purpose that what we choose to give it. It's not "flip flopping" at all. It's apparently beyond your ability to comprehend.
Your all over the board here.
|
You're projecting, Bill. It's very clear and concise what I am saying. You just can't grasp it.
| Atheism renders nothingness and nothingness renders meaninglessness, every time. Go back one up and reread your own words. |
No. Atheism says that there is absolutely no proof of a god. Thus, no heaven. Thus, this life is all we got. You simply want to believe that we're "special", that g-man made this universe specifically for us. And if we aren't the center of creation, you think there's no point. That's a pretty pathetic outlook.
Oh good grief! You are the one claiming to know for a fact what happens after death and not me. I said that I had a belief of what happens. A fry cry from claiming to definitively know. Sometimes it's hard to tell if you really don't get this or our just being obtuse.
|
You can't be this dense. I say "there's no afterlife". You say "there IS an afterlife". Substitute "Africa" for "afterlife". How exactly do I prove there's no Africa? It's up to you to fly to Africa or to show satellite photos of Africa to prove that it does exist.
(I know that analogy is going to fry a couple of circuits)
BS!!!!! You said you definitively know what happens after we die. I simply pointed out that you have a belief of what happens. |
My dad died 10 years ago. I haven't seen him walking around since. Neither has my mom. I haven't gotten any postcards from heaven saying, "Wish you were here." I haven't seen his face in a bowl of soup or in the mold behind my refrigerator. I think it's pretty safe to say that I will never see him again. I think it is also pretty safe to say that nobody else has ever seen or heard from anyone after they've checked out.
| It is you that has the belief that if you behave nicely, you'll get a prize at the end. If you didn't have that belief, would you still act the same way towards your fellow man. |
Strawman. |
How so? People perform rituals and engage in acts of kindness in the hope that they'll get a membership to the Heaven Club.
Atheism leads to nothingness and nothingness renders meaninglessness 100% of the time. Therefore your life is meaningless just as you acknowledged a few lines up.
|
It's sad that the only value you see in life is what you imagine from that big cuddly super-guy-in-the-sky
You're banking that you have done the right things to "get in the door to heaven". Some people think if they have a cookie and a shot at mass every Sunday, they're good to go. You apparently think that some supreme being who has limitless power and was capable of creating a universe of this immensity needs us to say "God, you're the super bestest. Can we please spend our lives with you?" Why is this g-dude so insecure?
I personally think that you need the right password to get in. I'm guessing it's the same one that Fred and Barney used at the Loyal Order of Water Buffaloes: "Ack-acka-dack. Dack-dacka-ack."
One more question: can I bring my iPod to heaven? If I have to spend an eternity not being able to listen to King Crimson, I'm going to be pretty miserable. |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26030 Posts |
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9695 Posts |
 Posted - 01/12/2011 : 18:34:03 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Fripp
Trust me, we're just as happy as you are. We just don't need a god to "give" us happiness.
|
Actually, happier.
Remember, I've tasted both worlds, and I can confidently say that I'm much happier as an atheistic agnostic than I was as an evangelical Christian.
|
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 18:58:09 [Permalink]
|
| It seems to me that the fundamental difference between atheists and believers is that atheists take responsibility for themselves when it comes to giving their lives meaning and purpose. Believers cannot take that responsibility. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
|
|
|
moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 18:58:40 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Bill scott
Yes you can assign meaning to nothingness, but it still does not give meaning to nothingness, no matter how bad you want it to.
|
Bill, you are a poor apologists. Unfortunately for you we will share the same fate. We will feel nothing, we will know nothing, we will be nothing. I can't help it that you find that reality so frightening.
Back to some good news. On NPR I have just heard more encouraging news about Gabrielle Gifford. To date there have been no setbacks and as they have reduce her sedatives she is becoming more and more responsive. I hope that she continues on this apparent path to recovery. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
|
|
|
H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 19:21:02 [Permalink]
|
But Bill, if we atheists are right and god doesn't exist, then the meaning you imagine your life to have doesn't exist either. In other words, even if you delude yourself into thinking otherwise, your life would be just as "meaningless" as ours. Theism doesn't give your life meaning just because you believe it. It actually has to be true. And we all know how unlikely that is.
So, raise a beer and join the club, Bill. Like it or not, you're in the same boat we are, wherever it's headed. Oblivion, here we come!
|
"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/12/2011 19:21:13 |
|
|
|
Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 21:06:37 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dave W.
What sort of "meaning" or "purpose" does Christianity give to anyone?
|
I know you really do not want an answer, so why ask? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
I hope these aren't the first shots in a civil war
