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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 03/04/2011 : 06:16:49 [Permalink]
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Ok, 'nuff's enough; let's sum up. le Penseur, I am slightly astonished by the treatment you've recieved here. You came in with a claim supported by nothing but ancedote and have not been reduced to your basic components by skeptical laughter. Remarkable that, but unless you can produce some solid evidence in it's support, your story has no more veracity than Little Red Riding Hood. Even so, your treatement here has been quite gentle -- you really have no reason to complain.
Millions -- billions? -- of words have been written concerning alien encounters and abductions over the many decades and yet not one shred of empirical evidence has come to light, von Danikin et al. to the contrary. Conspiracy theories abound and seem to reproduce themselves like guppies; Hollywood has produced probably tens (hundreds?) of thousands of movies and TV shows of varying quality, most of it shitty, and news organs occasionally get hysterical over alien visitations, and still we got nothin'. In this day & age, where everybody, almost, is walking around with a camera and gleefully photographing the various misdeeds of various citizens, we still have doodly-squat to work with re: aliens. This last is ok, really, as photography has been never completely trustworthy and, what with Photoshop & all, it’s getting worse.
I have asked before: Why? Of all the worlds in the Galaxy, what would cause a staggeringly advanced, technological civilization to visit us? What would they find? I'll tell you; they would find a planet dominated by a single, extremely aggressive and fecund species that seems to have turned murder into a global recreation and, being intelligent, one assumes, would boogie away posthaste. Case in point; were I to encounter a visiting alien, or be abducted by some I'd pull my PDW and kill it/them on the spot, or at least try. Why? Well, they might turn out to be just like us. If successful, however, I'd have some bone-solid evidence to back my story up.
But that's neither here nor there; we have yet to get beyond the "is it possible" chapter. Perhaps it is, but I find that extremely doubtful.
Now you've told us a couple of pretty good stories -- you write quite well -- and I've enjoyed the read, but from there, the thread has fallen into utter nonsense and now (I predicted this to myself), has gone ad hominem. Therefore, I now call bullshit on the whole, friggin' thing. An anecdote, remember, is evidence of nothing but that it's teller has the ability to speak and/or write. "Talk's cheap; takes money to buy good whiskey" and hard evidence to substantiate a claim.
Speaking of evidence, do you remember the big ruction, some years back, when crop circles were offered as evidence of alien visitors? I got a good laugh out of that; our species is gullible as well as vicious. And speaking of vicious, livestock mutilations performed by human scumbags were offered as well.
So, le Penseur I offer a suggestion: Take a little time off, organize your thoughts, and return with a fresh outlook. Otherwise some smartass might get the idea of calling you le Petomane.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 03/04/2011 : 08:13:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
How embarrassing, can't back up your BS so you complain about spelling errors and post counts as if that somehow improves your arguement. You are a sad, sad person.
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He is just another retarded troll. He has been treated kindly for the most part, he has been given every chance to engage in a substantive discussion.... but he refuses to answer questions, he gets hostile when you pour out his numerous inconsistencies, and now he is initiating attacks over nothing.
He is a dumbass troll who didn't get the initial response he was looking for, so now he is just going to see how far he can go before getting kicked off.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 09:38:47 [Permalink]
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Filthy.....
| let's sum up. le Penseur, I am slightly astonished by the treatment you've recieved here. |
Actually, Filthy, your comment is more than accurate as concerns the first few pages of the thread. I was absolutely gob-smacked by the cool that was demonstrated here. Amazing! Even Dude restrained himself admirably early on!
Now, some 18 pages later - Kil said that the 15 page limit has been rescinded by TPTB - things are getting back to normal and all appears to be well on the Western Front. Which, of course, was inevitable. But it was a great little run while it lasted. I personally would like to congratulate everyone here for holding fire for a decent time.| unless you can produce some solid evidence in |
| yet not one shred of empirical evidence has come to light, |
| we still have doodly-squat to work with re: aliens. |
Filthy, if it is possible for you - for a few minutes - to accept all of Le Penseur's story as provisionally true dependent, of course, on evidence; what exactly and precisely is the evidence that you would require? I know you have said that you would shoot one of the aliens and bring it back from the spaceship to demonstrate to one and all, evidence of the existence of aliens. When you have taken as truth that the aliens have powers of mind control over humans, do you actually believe that such a 24/Jack Bauer scenario is in the least bit realistic? Would they not detect your weapon and disarm you long before you could use it? And if, somehow you succeeded, how would you pilot the space ship back to Earth?
What I am asking in all seriousness Filthy, is What is the exact, precise kind of evidence that Le Penseur (or any other abductee} could actually obtain - when he is under the power of aliens that can control his mind and body? Skin scrapings for DNA? Would they allow that? If a pathological lab had such tissue, could they actually analyze it to the point where you would accept it as evidence that aliens do, indeed exist? Photographs. Again, would the aliens permit that? If they did, and the prints were given to you, could you prove they were not photoshopped and were authentic?
None of the extremely bright people on this forum from Dave to Humbert have been able to describe a realistic scenario as to how acceptable evidence of any nature whatever could have been -- with a high degree of probability -- obtained by Le Penseur or any other abductee.
Can you? |
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le Penseur
Banned
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 10:30:15 [Permalink]
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A sad sad person? Lol You're a clubhouse full of idiots, no other way to say it. Each more pathetically out of touch with reality than the next. That's why you huddle together, so you can support each other in denying the reality that the rest of the world has already largely accepted.
You act as if I owe it to you to educate you, take you by the hand, and lead you step by step out of the sad pit of denial you've managed to fall into. The saddest part is? You actually think you are intelligent!
You want so desperately for my true experiences to be bullshit, to cling to your frightened position of dark ignorance. Actually, you all hold the same position as they held in the middle ages!
You see, the real difference between your opinions and my experiences is that you are all just guessing. That's really all you have, guesses. And you've guessed wrong. I don't have to guess. I know. That's what separates us. But you can't handle that, you want to pretend that everybody is just guessing. We are not. You are. And poorly.
Vindication is mine, guys, and it will never be yours. The reality I have tried to alert you about is never going to go away, Millions more people will become involved in encounters and abductions, more nations will be forced to admit they have dealt with aliens directly, more sightings, more video, more photos, more veterans, more pilots, more public officials, more military officers, more average families.
We still have time to act as a society, but thanks to idiots like you who have managed to sleepwalk through your lives, we probably will not take the actions we need to. Ah, well, I tried.
But it still baffles me the pretzel logic, the twisted gymnastics of reasoning you must go through to hide from reality. The hubris you display, is obscene.
In order for your opinions to be valid, ALL the tens of millions of people who witness these events, or participate in mass sightings, encounters, abductions, retrievals, military encounters, commercial aviation encounters, police encounters...well, they must ALL be wrong! All of them! And you would know they are wrong why? Because you were NOT THERE? LOL
That makes sense. These witnesses and participants were there at these events, and you were home in bed somewhere, but they must be wrong, or lying, why? Because you said so? Lol Because you know better than they do what they experience? Such hubris!
Your excuses are empty and illogical. Especially when these events are accompanied by physical evidence like photos, videos, radar recordings. But according to you, all that physical evidence is wrong too, right? Lol. You're avoiding reality at all costs. But reality is not going away.
Every week in the years to come will bring more evidence to support me, and to undermine your empty nay-saying. I'm content to let the days ahead vindicate everything I have to say about aliens. Good luck keeping the light out of your clubhouse. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 10:51:38 [Permalink]
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Le Penseur:
Looks like Dave W. took his asshole pill today. |
Le Penseur:
I could tell Dave W. was going to be a pain in the ass right away, from his choice of avatar: an ugly, angry pouting baby, which is really right on the money. |
Le Penseur:
I was astonished to see that Dave W. has over twenty thousand posts here. TWENTY THOUSAND? Jesus Christ! You want some "useful" information? Turn off your computer and go outside. Before it's too late. Get some Vitamin D on your sun-deprived skin before it just flakes off you. No wonder you have the heartbreak of psoriasis. |
What Dave was doing was speculating on a popular cultural aspect to both the UFO and alien abduction stories. That you didn't like his doing that, Le Penseur doesn't mean he doesn't have a point or that he was attacking you. There are many of us who see a possible link to when these events started being reported and the rise of science fiction dealing with alien species coming to earth in movies, TV and so on. It's your reaction to pointing out that possible link that has been over the top. Again, did you not think that skeptics would look for answers other than yours? It's gotten so no one can dare to question the UFO culture, which you are clearly a part of, without an ad hom attack from you.
If you want to raise the level of discourse, you will not do it by calling every skeptical take or observation on this subject stupid and worthy of attack by you. Again, we are skeptics. And you came here. We didn't seek you out. So what's with all the attitude? Yeah, some questioners have been downright rude. But in the posts that lead up to your last tirade against Dave, I don't see what he did to make you go off the way you have. I have re-read it several times and all I see is you putting up a wall and lashing back at a conjecture that is fairly mainstream outside of the UFO community.
I would have brought it up myself if Pod and Dave hadn't beaten me to it. Would I have been called an asshole too? And since when is it not okay to rebut a rebuttal? Is it that once you have said your piece, that's it? End of story? As though we should just accept whatever conspiracy theory that you subscribe to as a reason for why the general public doesn't know about aliens?
I'll grant you that Dave is tough. But stupid he isn't. And even Bill has told you that over and over again. Since you seem to trust him, why don't you take him at his word?
Your last rant against Dave is nothing but a several paragraph ad hominem attack. Nothing more. I can't find where Dave made the same kind of attack on you. So you just don't want to consider some things. That's fine I guess, but the fact that we do is no reason for your outburst and clear contempt for those things that we wonder about.
So yeah. If your wondering, I'm placing a decent part of the blame on how this conversation is going on you. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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le Penseur
Banned
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 10:59:31 [Permalink]
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Kil | Your last rant against Dave is nothing but a several paragraph ad hominem attack. Nothing more. I can't find where Dave made the same kind of attack on you. |
Then you aren't paying much attention. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 11:17:26 [Permalink]
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le Penseur:
You're a clubhouse full of idiots. |
No, le Penseur. We are a clubhouse full of skeptics. I have already told you about anecdotal evidence. At one point in this dialog, you accepted that. Millions of people think a lot of goofy things (and not saying that you are one of them). Should we accept their claims too just because they believe it themselves? That's where the disconnect is. I'm interested in your story, but I will not accept anecdotal evidence for an extraordinary claim. And like it or not, your claim is extraordinary. This isn't an election.
Yeah, a few of us are truly interested in the phenomena. And yes, even those of us who are also default to critical thinking on the subject. What time I have had I have spent looking at other sources on alien abduction. Getting aquatinted with the players and such. Who thinks what and why they think it. Accuse me or Dave of being closed minded and you completely miss the point of our skepticism. Yeah, we can be annoying to a "true believer." But our skepticism serves a purpose. Our questions serve a purpose.
Maybe one day we will see that all you have said is true and correct. But as long as there is reason to doubt it, someone freaking needs to doubt it. That's how science works! If you see those doubts as attacks (and I'll admit, a few were, but most weren't) then maybe you could find us a more grounded and less defensive abductee to help us understand why we shouldn't doubt what you are presenting to us? Or maybe you could rise to the occasion and not just go off on people who are genuinely interested, but doubt your assertion.
If you came to save us from ourselves, well... Skeptics are not always correct. But without doubt and questioning there is simply no way to get to the truth value of a claim... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 11:20:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by le Penseur
Kil | Your last rant against Dave is nothing but a several paragraph ad hominem attack. Nothing more. I can't find where Dave made the same kind of attack on you. |
Then you aren't paying much attention.
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I've been paying keen attention. Yeah, Dave is tough. But I have seen no ad-hominem attacks on you coming from him. If you would like to produce one that I might have missed, lay it on me. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 11:23:53 [Permalink]
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Ahh, yes. Yet another person who thinks that he alone has seen, and comprehends The Truth.
Originally posted by le Penseur
A sad sad person? Lol You're a clubhouse full of idiots, no other way to say it. |
When you have to resort to name-calling, that's a sure sign that your position has no merit.
| Each more pathetically out of touch with reality than the next. |
This coming from someone who claims he has been abducted by aliens multiple times? Wow, that blew out the ol' Irony Meter.
| Actually, you all hold the same position as they held in the middle ages! |
They believed in alien abductions back then? That's news to me.
| Vindication is mine, guys, and it will never be yours. |
Revenge is another indicator that your argument is lacking, to say the least. All you're missing here is a "Mwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!" as you rub your hands together in sadistic anticipation.
| The reality I have tried to alert you about is never going to go away, Millions more people will become involved in encounters and abductions, more nations will be forced to admit they have dealt with aliens directly, more sightings, more video, more photos, more veterans, more pilots, more public officials, more military officers, more average families. |
*yawn* OK sure. That's what the Heaven's Gate cult thought as well.
| but thanks to idiots like you |
More insults. Way to 'win friends and influence people'
| who have managed to sleepwalk through your lives, |
Yet another person who accuses us of "sleepwalking" simply because we don't take their fantastic claims at face value.
| The hubris you display, is obscene. |
From someone who calls himself "the Thinker"? Need I say more?
| In order for your opinions to be valid, ALL the tens of millions of people who witness these events, |
"Tens of millions"? Really?
| or participate in mass sightings, encounters, abductions, retrievals, military encounters, commercial aviation encounters, police encounters...well, they must ALL be wrong! All of them! And you would know they are wrong why? Because you were NOT THERE? LOL |
Hey, hey, hey. There's a limit to how many exclamation points and ALL CAPS that you're allowed to use here. Because if you use one more exclamation point, I might be convinced that your fairy tale is TRUE!!!!!!!!
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"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 11:33:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by le Penseur
A sad sad person? Lol You're a clubhouse full of idiots ...
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Having tried to tell your tale in another skeptic forum you should have bee better equiped to deal with tough questions. People who would be unlikely to take you at your word. I believe most have accepted your sincerity, but that only does not meet the demands of a skeptic forum. You knew this.
Originally posted by le Penseur
You want so desperately for my true experiences to be bullshit, to cling to your frightened position of dark ignorance. ...
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On the contrary, I think alien visitation would be exciting news, but base on the lack of evidence and more I just don't see it as likely.
Originally posted by le Penseur
In order for your opinions to be valid, ALL the tens of millions of people who witness these events ...
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Then we should believe that the Miracle of the Sun occurred. 10s of thousands of witnesses to a single event.
Originally posted by le Penseur
Every week in the years to come will bring more evidence to support me ...
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60+ years later we are still waiting for any evidence. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 11:47:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by le Penseur
Every week in the years to come will bring more evidence to support me, and to undermine your empty nay-saying. I'm content to let the days ahead vindicate everything I have to say about aliens.
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Care to make a little wager? You can set the amount to be bet and what time frame that this will be settled by. I'll take you up on whatever wager you wish to place. |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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le Penseur
Banned
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 11:56:21 [Permalink]
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kil | If you want to raise the level of discourse, you will not do it by calling every skeptical take or observation on this subject stupid and worthy of attack by you. Again, we are skeptics. |
You are not skeptics, stop pretending you are. You haven't the right to use the word skeptic, your position is one of denial.
You have almost all stated repeatedly that you demand absolute proof. That is not skepticism. You demand a level of proof so absurdly high that you can't even define it when asked repeatedly to do so! That is not skepticism.
When I pointed out that none of you could prove something far more mundane given the restraints of the chatroom, such as proof of what you had for dinner last night. Your response should have been, the logical response would be, "Gee, I guess it is impossible to prove aliens in a chatroom, when I can't even prove what I had for dinner."
But the response of you 'skeptics'? "I don't came if it's impossible, I demand it!" "I need absolute proof to consider a different viewpoint!"
That is not skepticism.
Your demands have been, "Either travel to where I am with an alien being or shut up." As if words don't matter, when ironically, all you deniers have are words. Your entire case is built on words. We have mountains of evidence, you only have words and opinion. "Can't prove a negative," you fall back on. But nor can you disprove a great deal of evidence.
When you say "there is No evidence of aliens!" and "not one shred of empirical evidence has come to light," "In this day & age, where everybody, almost, is walking around with a camera and gleefully photographing the various misdeeds of various citizens, we still have doodly-squat to work with "Speaking of evidence, do you remember the big ruction, some years back, when crop circles were offered as evidence of alien visitors? I got a good laugh out of that; our species is gullible as well as vicious. And speaking of vicious, livestock mutilations performed by human scumbags were offered as well. "
These statement are not skepticism, they are statements of an almost religious form of denial.
There are mountains of evidence of ufos and aliens, a true skeptic would know that.
He would realize that no one has ever successfully hoaxed a crop circle, there are qualities in a 'genuine' crop circle that have never been duplicated by anyone, including those two drunks in England. He may not find that enough evidence to accept alien involvement, but a true skeptic would know the differences are there. And crop circle formations are continuing to this day, more unexplained than ever.
A true skeptic would realize that the cattle mutilation cases were never solved or even attributed to humans. And they continue to this day.
The level of sightings are increasing, not decreasing. Thanks to cell phones, there are now far more photos being taken than ever before, and of a higher quality. A true skeptic might not be convinced, depending on his mindset, but he would at least be aware of the evidence.
Your baseless, vehement denials of the existence of evidence is not the position of an intelligent skeptic, it is unjustifiable denial. Rhetoric of the sort you use here is much like the tactics of republican spin pundits like Rush Limbaugh and his ilk.
Next you'll be calling yourselves fair and balanced. |
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le Penseur
Banned
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 12:14:33 [Permalink]
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kil | I have already told you about anecdotal evidence. |
More biased language. What you call 'anecdotal evidence' is actually known by another term: Eyewitness Testimony. And it is held as so important that it is the cornerstone of our entire judicial system; people are sentenced to death or acquitted based solely on eye-witness testimony.
Eyewitness Testimony is good enough for every life and death case, every type of crime or civil conflict, ever war crimes tribunals like Nuremberg.
But somehow, to the deniers, eyewitness testimony doesn't count. Good enough for putting Nazis to death, but just not good enough when it comes to flying saucers, right? LOL
In fact, courts now recognize Expert Testimony as well. Is eyewitness testimony always correct? Of course not. But it is evidence of such importance that our lives are determined by it.
But you 'skeptics' shudder at the thought of calling my account Eyewitness Testimony. A true skeptic would realize the evidential weight of eyewitness testimony. You are not skeptics. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 12:30:46 [Permalink]
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Le Penseur:
You are not skeptics, stop pretending you are. You haven't the right to use the word skeptic, your position is one of denial. |
Shall I list all of the people who say that about us? Those who sell homeopathics say it. Creationists say it. Those who claim paranormal powers that can be tested say it. The list is long. Why put yourself in their company?
I never said that you could produce physical evidence or something equally convincing. But that is what it would take for your claim to not be doubted. (Of course, there are levels of doubt, but whatever...) And there is a good reason for that high of a standard. Because if we didn't ask for that kind of evidence, all claims become equal. There are many more people than you who claim that evolution doesn't happen. Should I believe them too?
I don't doubt your sincerity. I only doubt the claim. What's so bad about that? I have never ruled it out completely. So call it denial if you want to. But in truth it just goes to an acceptable standard of evidence that doesn't just apply to your claim.
And yes, even the first crop circles were hoaxed. The guys who did it admitted it. I don't know where you are getting your info from, but crop circles have been repeatedly hoaxed, and the literature on that is available for anyone wishing to investigate it. And so on and so on...
As for me, I have been delving into stories about claims like yours and the whole UFO thing in general.
Your attacks on skeptics notwithstanding, (and even if you want to ignore that I said we can be wrong) I still see what we do as important to getting at the truth value of a claim. All conclusions are tentative. Read my signature. It applies to me. See if it applies to you... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 12:41:55 [Permalink]
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Le Penseur:
More biased language. What you call 'anecdotal evidence' is actually known by another term: Eyewitness Testimony. And it is held as so important that it is the cornerstone of our entire judicial system; people are sentenced to death or acquitted based solely on eye-witness testimony. |
Well. If you had done as much study on memory as I have, you would not say such a thing. The more we get into it the more we realize how unreliable eye witness testimony is. Would you like the literature on that? Suffice it to say that more than a few convicted felens are being released because the convictions that got them into jail based on eye witness testimony have been overturned by new and better (and dare I say it?) scientific evidence. And there are now less convictions, based on eye witness only testimony. The science of forensics has improved to the point that it's far more reliable. (Of course, some physical evidence is required to do the forensic work.)
Do you have any idea of how many people are witness to healing's by a guy like Benny Hinn ? Probably runs into the millions by now. And yet not one healing has been confirmed or not been explained by a placebo effect. And there are other more serious problems with the guy. Are you ready to hand over your money to him based on eye witness testimony?
False memories happen too. Would you like the literature on that?
I'm not saying any of those things apply to you. But really... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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ETs are here, despite guesses to the contrary
