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alienist
Skeptic Friend
USA
210 Posts |
 Posted - 03/04/2011 : 12:50:20 [Permalink]
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To Le Penseur:
If you are so worried about humanity and dangers of alien abduction, why are you wasting your time on this website?
If you are not happy with the answers you are getting, why are you still posting to this site?
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The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well! - Joe Ancis |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 03/04/2011 : 13:11:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Filthy.....
| let's sum up. le Penseur, I am slightly astonished by the treatment you've recieved here. |
Actually, Filthy, your comment is more than accurate as concerns the first few pages of the thread. I was absolutely gob-smacked by the cool that was demonstrated here. Amazing! Even Dude restrained himself admirably early on!
Now, some 18 pages later - Kil said that the 15 page limit has been rescinded by TPTB - things are getting back to normal and all appears to be well on the Western Front. Which, of course, was inevitable. But it was a great little run while it lasted. I personally would like to congratulate everyone here for holding fire for a decent time.| unless you can produce some solid evidence in |
| yet not one shred of empirical evidence has come to light, |
| we still have doodly-squat to work with re: aliens. |
Filthy, if it is possible for you - for a few minutes - to accept all of Le Penseur's story as provisionally true dependent, of course, on evidence; what exactly and precisely is the evidence that you would require? I know you have said that you would shoot one of the aliens and bring it back from the spaceship to demonstrate to one and all, evidence of the existence of aliens. When you have taken as truth that the aliens have powers of mind control over humans, do you actually believe that such a 24/Jack Bauer scenario is in the least bit realistic? Would they not detect your weapon and disarm you long before you could use it? And if, somehow you succeeded, how would you pilot the space ship back to Earth?
What I am asking in all seriousness Filthy, is What is the exact, precise kind of evidence that Le Penseur (or any other abductee} could actually obtain - when he is under the power of aliens that can control his mind and body? Skin scrapings for DNA? Would they allow that? If a pathological lab had such tissue, could they actually analyze it to the point where you would accept it as evidence that aliens do, indeed exist? Photographs. Again, would the aliens permit that? If they did, and the prints were given to you, could you prove they were not photoshopped and were authentic?
None of the extremely bright people on this forum from Dave to Humbert have been able to describe a realistic scenario as to how acceptable evidence of any nature whatever could have been -- with a high degree of probability -- obtained by Le Penseur or any other abductee.
Can you?
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I do not know what evidence I would accept. We are discussing not just alien visitation, but paranormal crap such as "mind reading" and other forms of woo. The evidence, whatever it might be, would have to be pretty, damned strong. However, It is not for me to provide such evidence; le Penseur has made the claim and it is incumbent upon him to put up or shut up, not I.
I will make a prediction: It ain't gonna happen and everybody concerned will get all pissed off over, essentially, nothing. Except me. I'm just a critical bystander who refuses to be sucked into one of your verbose traps.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 13:41:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by le Penseur
More biased language. What you call 'anecdotal evidence' is actually known by another term: Eyewitness Testimony. And it is held as so important that it is the cornerstone of our entire judicial system; people are sentenced to death or acquitted based solely on eye-witness testimony.
Eyewitness Testimony is good enough for every life and death case, every type of crime or civil conflict, ever war crimes tribunals like Nuremberg.
But somehow, to the deniers, eyewitness testimony doesn't count. Good enough for putting Nazis to death, but just not good enough when it comes to flying saucers, right? LOL |
So you are saying if you were on trial for murder and your only alibi was "I couldn't have done it because I was abducted by aliens that night," everyone would believe you and let you go? I don't think you have a very good idea of how eye-witness testimony is received. Juries are not forced to accept whatever you say as truth. They usually present this thing called evidence at trials as well.
| You have almost all stated repeatedly that you demand absolute proof. That is not skepticism. You demand a level of proof so absurdly high that you can't even define it when asked repeatedly to do so! That is not skepticism. |
This is simply untrue. I've told you several things you could start with. For instance, I mentioned the problems inherent with trusting a single eye-witness. A Youtube video of testimonials from all five individuals who can confirm your account would be a good rejoinder. I suggested setting up security cameras to record an abduction event. You haven't even mentioned an attempt at such a thing. I have asked you to submit for discussion pictures or videos of aliens or their craft you believe to be authentic and your methods of analysis. Thus far you've ignored the suggestion.
le Penseur, we aren't close-minded simply because we won't take you at your word. The burden of proof is on your shoulders, not ours, and obviously it is a burden you don't know how to carry. We could have helped in that regard, if you were serious in learning how to spread your message in an effective manner. You could think of us as lawyers helping you to build a case, informing you just what sort of evidence any judge would be likely to accept or reject. Because as of right now, you don't have much of a case.
But ranting and raving that we are all too blind to see that aliens are a "reality" even though you can't produce a single shred of evidence that they exist outside of your own head...well, that just makes you look crazy. And whether you speak the truth or not, we would be right to ignore you. Here, you'll receive no belief on the basis of faith alone. Not ever. I'm sorry if that angers you, but it's an attitude that has served us well and we take pains to cultivate.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 03/04/2011 13:49:17 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 13:45:09 [Permalink]
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Crop circles..... hahahaha! Give one of my grandkids a twenty penny nail, a spool of mason's twine and a pair of bear paw snowshoes and watch how fast he or she can stomp one out. The more convoluted ones require careful geometry with several or many nails and strings, and confederates. While attractive from the air, these are more trouble than they're worth.
Again with Ockham’s Razor: The simplest explanation within the bounds of the available evidence is most likely the correct one.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 13:57:53 [Permalink]
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In no particular order:Originally posted by le Penseur
You have almost all stated repeatedly that you demand absolute proof. |
I didn't. I didn't ask for proof of anything from you, not even once. I was more than willing to take your account as true for the sake of discussion, but apparently you don't want to discuss the things I'd like to discuss. No big deal.
But I'll try again, just because: how can I tell when a government employee is saying something true from when he is acting as a disinformation agent?| ...people are sentenced to death or acquitted based solely on eye-witness testimony. |
Name one.| Good enough for putting Nazis to death... |
Nope. Well, not good enough for me. Perhaps it was for the judges, but they weren't us.| He would realize that no one has ever successfully hoaxed a crop circle, there are qualities in a 'genuine' crop circle that have never been duplicated by anyone... |
Brilliant: the No True Crop Circle fallacy!| In order for your opinions to be valid, ALL the tens of millions of people who witness these events, or participate in mass sightings, encounters, abductions, retrievals, military encounters, commercial aviation encounters, police encounters...well, they must ALL be wrong! All of them! |
If four billion people are wrong about the existence of god(s), surely ten million can be wrong about this.| Good luck keeping the light out of your clubhouse. |
None of the staff have asked the light to leave, or demanded it go. Instead, the light is stomping out like a petulant child, and trying to burn every bridge on its way. Bye-bye, light. Don't let the door hit you in the ass.
That's too bad. He was up to 6.78 posts per day! He could have been a contender. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 13:58:02 [Permalink]
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The thought occures: Randi might be interested in this. It could be worth a million bucks.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 15:03:36 [Permalink]
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Filthy......
Thanks for a very civil and thoughtful reply.| I do not know what evidence I would accept. |
To me, the only real problem with this thread is that neither does anyone else here. And there are many highly intelligent, some quite thoughtful and open-minded and mature folks like yourself, Kil, Half Mooner and several others. But despite most of the members that are participating (sadly, not everyone is) view that Le Penseur is is some way deluded, only Kil has not demanded "evidence" or, in effect, said "put up or shut up". Kil
I never said that you could produce physical evidence or something equally convincing. But that is what it would take for your claim to not be doubted. (Of course, there are levels of doubt, but whatever...) |
Now is it not a bit incongruous to continue demanding "evidence" when one cannot define in any way what that evidence must be? Le Penseur has stated that there is abundant evidence of this phenomenon. My view is to question him on how to access all of that evidence methodically and attempt to form a judgment. His evidence is stated to be an actual physical encounter with aliens. It is not productive to ask LP for evidence of his personal experiences, as he has clearly pointed out. But it is possibly useful to try to discover the evidence that he knows of pertaining to other aspects of his narrative and I intend to do so, if he will allow it.| It is not for me to provide such evidence; le Penseur has made the claim and it is incumbent upon him to put up or shut up, not I. |
Of course it is not incumbent on you or any other person to try and find evidence for another's claim, unless you have a sincere interest in the truth or falsity of that claim You, and most here, with the possible exception of Kil, have a relatively small interest in UAP claims. There is nothing wrong with that, it is a personal choice.
I have had, as all of you must know by now, high interest in this subject for many years or I would not have collected a large library of books and periodicals on the subject extending back more than sixty years. I am sure there is more written on this subject than a person could begin to read in an entire lifetime. But that is in no way evidence. It just attests to my interest. It may correspond to your interest in zoology. The major difference is that much of what you refer to in your delightful writings is in fact easily evidenced whereas the references to UAP and ET are not.
For a variety of reasons too complex to discuss in detail here, the UAP/ET phenomenon (which may be two discrete phenomena) has never been, to my knowledge, seriously addressed by the Scientific Method. I know all about the Condon Report and many other quasi-scientific attempts to investigate UAP/ET. But no true scientist or group of scientists has ever undertaken a genuine, full-bore investigation of any of the claims or remains of UAP/ET. If I really had a lot of money ,I would fund such an investigation.
So Dave is really right, it doesn't exist until it exists or, less facetiously, is proven to exist. That won't happen until serious investigation is undertaken or the phenomenon becomes as manifest as it was in the Independence Day or War of the Worlds movies.
Le Penseur is either unaware of or not a full subscriber to the manifests of Critical Thinking and The Rules of Logical Fallacy because he is not an investigator or scientist attempting to validate strange evidences; in his view he has had the evidence thrust upon him as personal experience. It may be similar to those who claim a religious epiphany. It may be fact. I certainly don't know. I intend to, at least attempt, to find out.| It ain't gonna happen and everybody concerned will get all pissed off over, essentially, nothing. |
My response is I have no idea whether or not "it's gonna happen" but everybody already is all pissed off, and that being essentially human nature, is probably not going to change.| I'm just a critical bystander who refuses to be sucked into one of your verbose traps. |
"Verbose" --- I must honestly apologize for that. I hired an editor some time ago, and the essence of what she has advised me so far is, "Condense, condense, condense" So much to say, far too many words to choose from to say it briefly. It takes time to become a professional. I hope I have enough left.
Please, Filthy, verbose or not, I certainly am not trying to "trap you" into anything.I am not capable of that even if I had the desire, which I don't. I was simply trying to cast some light on a different mode of thinking. I am sincere in that! Thank you for reponding to me! |
| Edited by - bngbuck on 03/04/2011 23:11:31 |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 15:15:30 [Permalink]
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[b[Dave[/b]....
Why does the time-of-posting clock appear to be set to Mountain Standard Time? |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 15:52:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
only Kil has not demanded "evidence" or, in effect, said "put up or shut up". |
That is simply not true.
It may be similar to those who claim a religious epiphany. It may be fact. I certainly don't know. |
As everybody here should know, Knowledge By Divine Intervention is an paradigm opposite of scientific knowledge. For ages, it has produced nothing but bullshit. Science on the other hand is responsible for all advanced knowledge we have, and depend on daily.
Anyone who depend on religious epiphany or "knowledge" derived by a similar paradigm is making a big mistake.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 15:54:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Why does the time-of-posting clock appear to be set to Mountain Standard Time?
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The server running the forum software is operating on MST.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 16:10:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
So Dave is really right, it doesn't exist until it exists or, less facetiously, is proven to exist. |
You really can't drop this, can you? I tried to take it out of this thread and sent you a PM (which I know you've read), but two days later you're pulling the same nasty stunts again right here in public. It is absurd of you to be commenting on the civility of anyone else when you seem to revel in such open hostilities. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 16:11:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Filthy.....
| let's sum up. le Penseur, I am slightly astonished by the treatment you've recieved here. |
Actually, Filthy, your comment is more than accurate as concerns the first few pages of the thread. I was absolutely gob-smacked by the cool that was demonstrated here. Amazing! Even Dude restrained himself admirably early on!
Now, some 18 pages later - Kil said that the 15 page limit has been rescinded by TPTB - things are getting back to normal and all appears to be well on the Western Front. Which, of course, was inevitable. But it was a great little run while it lasted. I personally would like to congratulate everyone here for holding fire for a decent time.| unless you can produce some solid evidence in |
| yet not one shred of empirical evidence has come to light, |
| we still have doodly-squat to work with re: aliens. |
Filthy, if it is possible for you - for a few minutes - to accept all of Le Penseur's story as provisionally true dependent, of course, on evidence; what exactly and precisely is the evidence that you would require? I know you have said that you would shoot one of the aliens and bring it back from the spaceship to demonstrate to one and all, evidence of the existence of aliens. When you have taken as truth that the aliens have powers of mind control over humans, do you actually believe that such a 24/Jack Bauer scenario is in the least bit realistic? Would they not detect your weapon and disarm you long before you could use it? And if, somehow you succeeded, how would you pilot the space ship back to Earth?
What I am asking in all seriousness Filthy, is What is the exact, precise kind of evidence that Le Penseur (or any other abductee} could actually obtain - when he is under the power of aliens that can control his mind and body? Skin scrapings for DNA? Would they allow that? If a pathological lab had such tissue, could they actually analyze it to the point where you would accept it as evidence that aliens do, indeed exist? Photographs. Again, would the aliens permit that? If they did, and the prints were given to you, could you prove they were not photoshopped and were authentic?
None of the extremely bright people on this forum from Dave to Humbert have been able to describe a realistic scenario as to how acceptable evidence of any nature whatever could have been -- with a high degree of probability -- obtained by Le Penseur or any other abductee.
Can you?
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The way it is here. It is not Flithy's responsibility to answer questions on what kind evidence would be sufficient to convince him or what evidence would prove le Penseur story and claims are truthful or real. Filthy is not telling the story and making the claims le Penseur is. If I were to come here and say "pink elephants" exist and EXPECT to convince anyone on this skeptic's form that I'm not delusional, nut's or just pulling their legs, it should be my responsibility to present any evidence I have, not anyone's else responsibility to say what it would or could be, it's improper. In a debate your questions would be a "red herring" attempt to put the onus of proof on others beside Le Penseur where it belongs and I'm not saying you intended that directly Bill but it is that, intended or not.
Did Le Penseur claim to have "evidence"? I didn't read he did, in so many words, not in his first couple posts anyway and I suspect he never did. I'm surely not going to bother looking for them through all his posts since, because if he did he's not presented any yet. So I believe he has none. To bad he's not taken the effort to acquire a single shred. It's his lost opportunity and no one else.
It is my opinion, with the lack of proof he's trying to pull chains and getting no where. In spite of all his effort here. How sad. Like claiming to have found a gold mine and being unable to cash in. That's life! Talking like a crazy deluded nut and unable to prove that your not. It would be sad and a loss to everyone if it's the case but I'm not convince from what he has presented here.
It has already been said and apparently needs to be said again, whenever people make extraordinary claims like Le Penseur has made here or Theist or homeopaths or countless others who try to convince skeptics without evidence, it leaves those skeptics who partake improperly, slopping about in the impending mud bath nothing but dirty. Mud created from the inevitable pissing match between the claimant and any skeptic foolish enough to be lured into a discussion before any evidence is ever presented. I glad to see the best skeptics here responding as they have, in spite of the prodding. Good job. SS
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There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 16:14:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
The thought occures: Randi might be interested in this. It could be worth a million bucks.
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Without evidence he can't get past first base. He doesn't even have a bat, to hit the ball with, let alone being on a team. SS |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 16:44:25 [Permalink]
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Le Penseur.....
| You act as if I owe it to you to educate you, take you by the hand, and lead you step by step out of the sad pit of denial you've managed to fall into. The saddest part is? You actually think you are intelligent! |
LP Actually, most of the folks here are quite intelligent! I have some expertise in psychometrics and I have observed here about three and one-half years and it is my professional opinion (although I am degreed in clinical psychology, I have never practiced the science/craft except for a two year stint in the Army) that this is largely a group of what could colloquially be called intellectuals.
What you are now experiencing is extremely similar to what I experienced when I first joined SFN back in August 2007. I understand that it is not easy, but please let the emotional tone, the Affect as the pointy-heads call it, cool down a bit. You are attempting a war of wits and you are numerically outnumbered, but not individually outmatched. This poses logistical problems rather like Samson faced. Although he destroyed thousands of warriors with the jawbone of an ass (think about it, death by jawbone -- of an ass), he was incapacitated by a haircut. You are letting the cacaphony of attack buzz-cut you down to their level of attack and counter attack. (I would hope you know that I really don't buy all the Samson melodrama. It just happens to be one of my favorite pieces of biblical bullshit)
Le Penseur, if you enjoy this kind of heated debate, then forget everything I have said above. By all means, bring it on! to quote a great statesman of recent times. You are good enough to keep on going for quite a while, I suspect. I really admire your writing. And I have engaged in this type of attack commentary for much longer than I care to admit!
But if, and when, you get tired of the combat aspect of it, or for any reason can't or do not wish to continue, I hope I have given you sufficient reason to keep in touch with me -bngbuck@roadrunner.com I have a lot of questions concerning your experiences with aliens and the nature of them for which I would be very grateful to listen to your answers. And I would appreciate your e-mail address so that I could converse with you in private. I absolutely guarantee that I will not abuse it in any way!
1. What is the aliens origin - where do they come from and go to as "home" in their ships?
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 18:14:49 [Permalink]
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| Without evidence he can't get past first base. He doesn't even have a bat, to hit the ball with, let alone being on a team. SS |
Ah, but perhaps he hasn't told the whole story. A lot of info could spring forth if a million is involved.
Buck, your editor is correct. Less is better -- if three words will get the thought across, choose them carefully and use no more than those three. And a twist I use is to go through the piece and look for what I thought at the time as the cleverest turn of phrase ever. As soon as I find one, I ruthlessly delete the wretched thing. You will be suprised at how well this will clean and tighten a screeving up.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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ETs are here, despite guesses to the contrary
