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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2011 : 07:04:59 [Permalink]
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Dude.....
Bring us some alien trash, anything they discard, there is a good chance it will have some material not used/made anywhere on earth).
A tissue sample (skin, blood, whatever) |
Dude, how do you get trash, or alien tissue, or anything else you can conceive of, if the Aliens - who can read and control your mind and body - don't want you to pick up their trash or whatever, or don't want you scratching their alien bodies to obtain samples? This is the way the Aliens have been presented by Le Penseur and because I don't have any personal experience with aliens, I have to take him at his word until I can learn more.| You know, I never agreed with Dave_W's assessment of your "agnosticism". I thought it was just the two of you throwing punches. You, right now, however, are doing a pretty good job of convincing me he is correct. |
He is correct that I am what I truly believe is an agnostic. I am not completely sure of what his full definition of agnosticism is.
Why you have trouble accepting that, I do not know!
I really wish that Le Penseur would tell us or me or somebody that would then tell me; From what Universe, galaxy, planet, time frame or spatial or temporal entity do the aliens come?
And are they life forms in anything like what we define as life?
And much more! But he seems to be silent! |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 03/05/2011 : 08:49:55 [Permalink]
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I think; I think there might be a way to prove alien visitation & body-snatching. Go to the putative site(s) with a Hoover or the scientific equivalent and start DNA or the equivalent hunting. After all, we, in our travels, leave behind skin cells, shed hair and snot everywhere we go. Could be that aliens do likewise. Therefore, any biological bits & pieces not belonging to humans or other Earth critters could be presumed to have very interesting, extraterrestrial origins. It would take a lot of hard work by some highly qualified biologists to sort it out.
I don't see it happening myself, but if it should pan out, it would hit the scientific community like Fat Boy at Hiroshima and le Penseur'll get last laugh. Dont'cha just hate when that happens?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 03/05/2011 : 09:28:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Dude, how do you get trash, or alien tissue, or anything else you can conceive of, if the Aliens - who can read and control your mind and body - don't want you to pick up their trash or whatever, or don't want you scratching their alien bodies to obtain samples? This is the way the Aliens have been presented by Le Penseur... |
Actually, he presented them with less than total control. From his first story:| It beckoned me to come outside, gesturing to its ship which hovered and glowed, telling me in my mind that I had to come with them for a while but that it was okay... I said no thanks, I was going to just stay here. They told me I must go with them, and the one at my window came in the house and up to my room to get me. |
And the second tale:| ...and during the 'flight', I got up, I moved closer to the 'pilots'... The aliens were upset that I was moving about... |
The aliens obviously are neither perfect mind readers nor perfect mind controllers. The idea that these abilities, as described by le Penseur, make it impossible for an abductee to obtain some sort of sample is ludicrous. Sure, the aliens may not be as incompetent as Klink and Schultz, but they clearly don't have total and immediate control. There are gray areas in which humans can exercise a free and undetected will.
And there would have to be. As a species, we'd be done for, otherwise. The aliens could have marched us all into the oceans by now, or shipped us all off to zoos (perhaps Earth is the zoo!). There's nothing to romanticize in that. For the stories to be compelling - to make us want to believe - there needs to be some up-side for us, some hope of redemption or victory.
le Penseur's stories, as originally told, included such germs of hope. Slip-ups in mind reading and mind control give us mere humans a window, even if small, in which to act towards our own goals, including freedom from ET tyranny. It's only when he was asked why he didn't collect physical evidence that he tried to deny it, in a fit of obviously ad hoc excuse-making.
Edited to add that if le Penseur had said nothing more than that he was abducted in his pre-teen years and so "collecting evidence" was really the furthest thing from his mind, that would have been a completely reasonable excuse, for him. Clearly there have been adults abducted who should have had better foresight, and perhaps le Penseur would claim that the aliens keep better tabs on them. But he didn't. He tried to change the premises of the story, instead, which makes it more difficult to suspend one's disbelief. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2011 : 11:52:42 [Permalink]
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Well, I dunno and I dunno. If any one of us were abducted, I'm pretty sure we would try to find a way to get verification of our abduction. But a kid may not be thinking about verification even after multipal abductions, considering all that's going on at the time of the abduction. My guess is that even most adults, who aren't really science minded, would very likely to not be thinking ahead that way.
I mean, dang. I wish they would come and get one of us! One of the things le Penseur doesn't understand is how important confirmation of such a discovery like that would be to mankind. While he's busy accusing us of wanting his story to be false, I think most, if not all of us would like his story to be true. But that pesky standard of evidence thing gets in the way.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2011 : 13:22:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
I mean, dang. I wish they would come and get one of us! One of the things le Penseur doesn't understand is how important confirmation of such a discovery like that would be to mankind. While he's busy accusing us of wanting his story to be false, I think most, if not all of us would like his story to be true. But that pesky standard of evidence thing gets in the way. |
Indeed. Such a discovery would potentially invalidate religions as we know them today. That by itself is a huge deal. Conspiracy theorists and woo would have a huge up-swing but undeniable evidence of extraterrestrial life would put most religious teachings into question.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2011 : 14:28:01 [Permalink]
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Dave.....
| Actually, he presented them with less than total control. From his first story: |
Dave, I went back and read the original very carefully as I know you did also. I agree that the general impression that one gets is that there is only partial control, or else it would not be necessary for the alien to physically come to LP to abduct him. The lesser probability would be that for some unknown alien reason, they wanted to moderate the impression of total control (psychological shock) that might be imposed by forcing him to walk to the ship against his will. Just a thought.| ...and during the 'flight', I got up, I moved closer to the 'pilots'... The aliens were upset that I was moving about... |
Definitely indicates little or no control being used at that time. Intentional or accidental on the part of the aliens?...I don't know. Probably a mistake to invoke much anthropism here.| The aliens obviously are neither perfect mind readers nor perfect mind controllers. |
Well, at least they do not always apply perfect control. That much seems sure. Whether or not they possess perfect control or not remains unclear to me. | The idea that these abilities, as described by le Penseur, make it impossible for an abductee to obtain some sort of sample is ludicrous. |
Again, I see the idea that they have perfect mind control as unlikely, but possible. It does seem obvious that, for whatever reason, they do not always exert perfect mind control, or he would not have been able to get up and walk around and alarm them. Were they intentionally letting him relax from his mental bounds or not - maybe, maybe not. There is other comment from LP that they did not want to unduly excite him.| The aliens obviously are neither perfect mind readers nor perfect mind controllers |
This is a valid view. Another is that for reasons unknown, they do not always use the full extent of their powers, but might have the capability if the situation demanded it.| And there would have to be. As a species, we'd be done for, otherwise. The aliens could have marched us all into the oceans by now, or shipped us all off to zoos (perhaps Earth is the zoo!). |
Even with only partial mind control they could have handed us a pretty good can of whoopee! If that was their intention! Have you seen that intent reflected in LP's writings? | For the stories to be compelling - to make us want to believe - there needs to be some up-side for us, some hope of redemption or victory. |
Yeah. Independence Day. War of the Worlds. Et Cetera.
Le Penseur comments early on that "I'm no writer". Hmnnnn. Some people are naturals. As Kil says "I dunno!"| It's only when he was asked why he didn't collect physical evidence that he tried to deny it, in a fit of obviously ad hoc excuse-making. |
Again, Kil's comments seem at least germane here| But a kid may not be thinking about verification even after multipal abductions, considering all that's going on at the time of the abduction. My guess is that even most adults, who aren't really science minded, would very likely to not be thinking ahead that way. |
| He tried to change the premises of the story |
I have addressed this above. In your edit, I acknowledge that you understand the possiblility of Kil's "kid" (your "preteen") surmise. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2011 : 14:44:40 [Permalink]
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Filthy.....
| Go to the putative site(s) with a Hoover or the scientific equivalent and start DNA or the equivalent hunting. |
Sounds to me like the most reasonable suggestion yet as to possible-to-actually-obtain Alien evidence. From what I have heard of the FBI, it is possible that they might pull it off. If they had a reason to involve their massive resources.
Do you feel that it is within the boundries of possibility that the FBI (or it's military equivilant) has already done such evidence collection? |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2011 : 15:13:09 [Permalink]
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| Do you feel that it is within the boundries of possibility that the FBI (or it's military equivilant) has already done such evidence collection? |
Dunno; possibly/probably, maybe. They are seldom hesitant to do woo if it will gain them a little notority -- a tradition started by yet another Hoover.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2011 : 15:29:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
The lesser probability would be that for some unknown alien reason, they wanted to moderate the impression of total control (psychological shock) that might be imposed by forcing him to walk to the ship against his will. Just a thought. |
But that's the sort of ad hoc excuse I was talking about. We can fabricate millions of those without knowing anything more about le Penseur's story (or real-life aliens!), and so they can carry no weight at all. Maybe the aliens were trying to avoid shocking the kid. Maybe they were toying with him. Maybe their powers work better in months without an R. Maybe the whole thing was due to US government disinformation agents loading the kid up with psychoactive drugs and feeding him an all-too anthropomorphic story. We can do this all day, so it adds nothing to any hypothesis.
On the other hand, we've got plenty of rock-solid evidence that kids aren't terribly wise in general, and so "I didn't think to grab an ET ashtray because I was ten" is an excuse grounded in empirically verifiable human nature.
That le Penseur chose the indefensible route instead of the everyday one speaks volumes about him. I, for one, would have found his whole shtick more tolerable had he thrown us such a bone to gnaw on once in a while. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2011 : 17:13:01 [Permalink]
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Dave.....
Would you please explain in the clearest language you can muster and with link reference if possible, what meaning you wish to convey with the following partial sentence:| le Penseur chose the indefensible route instead of the everyday one |
Dave, I am not attempting to annoy here, I truly do not understand what you mean with these words. Thank you for your help. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2011 : 19:21:20 [Permalink]
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bng said:
| Dude, how do you get trash, or alien tissue, or anything else you can conceive of, if the Aliens - who can read and control your mind and body - don't want you to pick up their trash or whatever, or don't want you scratching their alien bodies to obtain samples? This is the way the Aliens have been presented by Le Penseur and because I don't have any personal experience with aliens, I have to take him at his word until I can learn more. |
Can you at least try to pay attention? If you are taking him at his word (which you aren't, despite your protestations otherwise) then his aliens, by his own account, lack perfect control of their abductees.
To abduct thousands, or tens of thousands, these aliens would certainly be spending a great deal of time here on earth. You can gather this from LPs own account also, if you bother to read it. The abductions don't happen in an instant. It seems like it would require a great deal of manalien-power and equipment to run that kind of operation. Its been going on for at least ~50 years. These aliens not only fear death, they fear that a 10 y/o child could cause one of their ships to crash. That suggests less than omnipotent power. There have been people actively looking for ET for that same 50 years as well. Tens of thousands of people, from governments to retards like LP.
All of these things, all these variables, combined with the total lack of evidence, should be informing your agnosticism that if ET has been here then there is also a mouse living happily on the surface of the sun.
Now stop creating strawmen. Lp never said his aliens had total control. He said they freaked out when he was moving around their ship. He said they presented as authority figures (which is fucking imbecilic, your mom is terrified of them, they take your whole family against your will, they hurt you.... but you look up to them? Ummm, no.)
I'm tired of repeating myself here. You are just trolling this troll, and you think taking his side and supporting an even more absurd version of his fairy tale will get him to email you.
How about you skip over to the moonwalker thread and answer my question? The more you dig in here the more I become interested in your answer.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2011 : 19:45:32 [Permalink]
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Dude:
He said they freaked out when he was moving around their ship. He said they presented as authority figures (which is fucking imbecilic, your mom is terrified of them, they take your whole family against your will, they hurt you.... but you look up to them? Ummm, no.) |
Authority figure doesn't mean figure of respect that you "look up to" necessarily. Unless you are forced to respect what the authority can do to you. Kinda like the time I was face down with my hands in cuffs after I spit on a police car because I thought the cop was being a dick... Unless you count my vantage point at the time, I didn't look up to the cop, but he was in control of the situation. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2011 : 21:01:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Dude:
He said they freaked out when he was moving around their ship. He said they presented as authority figures (which is fucking imbecilic, your mom is terrified of them, they take your whole family against your will, they hurt you.... but you look up to them? Ummm, no.) |
Authority figure doesn't mean figure of respect that you "look up to" necessarily. Unless you are forced to respect what the authority can do to you. Kinda like the time I was face down with my hands in cuffs after I spit on a police car because I thought the cop was being a dick... Unless you count my vantage point at the time, I didn't look up to the cop, but he was in control of the situation.
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Yeah, well, we are talking about LP's reaction to his aliens. When a cop handcuffs you, you know you are only going to make things worse if you fight more. You also have a way to seek redress for any real wrong a police officer does to you.
Aliens kidnapping you, scaring your mom, hurting you.... they may well be authority figures, but I don't care how old you are, if some alien/person/whatever terrifies your mother in front of you, you should be pissed off, even if you are scared too. Imperfect mind control aside, he says they made friends with his younger brother, he calls them "nice", "polite", and "friendly".
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2011 : 21:09:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Dave.....
Would you please explain in the clearest language you can muster and with link reference if possible, what meaning you wish to convey with the following partial sentence:| le Penseur chose the indefensible route instead of the everyday one |
Dave, I am not attempting to annoy here, I truly do not understand what you mean with these words. Thank you for your help. |
Normal, everyday, well-supported explanation of why le Penseur didn't grab anything: he was ten.
Indefensible, ad hoc explanation without evidential support, even in his own stories: aliens have so much telepathic control that he couldn't possibly have grabbed anything.
It was the latter that le Penseur chose, of his own accord. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2011 : 21:16:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Aliens kidnapping you, scaring your mom, hurting you.... they may well be authority figures, but I don't care how old you are, if some alien/person/whatever terrifies your mother in front of you, you should be pissed off, even if you are scared too. Imperfect mind control aside, he says they made friends with his younger brother, he calls them "nice", "polite", and "friendly". |
Helsinki Syndrome?
Or maybe the aliens are only mean to him when he deserves it. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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ETs are here, despite guesses to the contrary
