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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 03/06/2011 : 13:45:49 [Permalink]
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Thanks. I've read up on it but I still can't comment. The only name I recognize is Chandra Wickramasinghe and I can't recall exactly why I know of him. Perhaps it's because he's a fan of panspermia, which, in my unhumble opinion, is way far from proven and therefore, pretty much nonsense. Abiogenesis is a much better hypothesis -- did I argue this years ago? Probably.
The truth of the matter is that this sort of thing, astronomy and cosmology(?), is not really my bag beyond being skeptical of the story. And as I posted earlier, the science of forensics could stand a decent chance of clearing that up to the satisfaction of some and the disgust of others.
We'll just have to wait and see.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2011 : 13:54:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Thanks. I've read up on it but I still can't comment. The only name I recognize is Chandra Wickramasinghe and I can't recall exactly why I know of him. Perhaps it's because he's a fan of panspermia, which, in my unhumble opinion, is way far from proven and therefore, pretty much nonsense. Abiogenesis is a much better hypothesis -- did I argue this years ago? Probably.
The truth of the matter is that this sort of thing, astronomy and cosmology(?), is not really my bag beyond being skeptical of the story. And as I posted earlier, the science of forensics could stand a decent chance of clearing that up to the satisfaction of some and the disgust of others.
We'll just have to wait and see.
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More from NASA Watch:
MSFC Astrobiologist's Shaky Claim: He's Found Life in A Meteorite (Updated)
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2011 : 14:13:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
No physical abuse of the hostage seems to be an important part of the development of emotional attachment to the captors. |
Well, that kills that hypothesis.
Battered spouse syndrome is still on the table, though.
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I don't think physical abuse rules out Stockholm Syndrome.
Love and Stockholm Syndrome: The Mystery of Loving an Abuser
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A famous Swedish criminologist has his own position of the Stockholm Syndrome: It's just complete BS. People form attachment every now-and-then. It's a matter of personal chemistry...
Perhaps that's why it's difficult to distinguish between Stockholm Syndrome and Spousal Abuse Syndrome. Hell, what do I know about it? I never studied psychology. If humans always acted logical and rational, everything would be so much easier.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2011 : 14:21:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
The only name I recognize is Chandra Wickramasinghe and I can't recall exactly why I know of him. |
His working buddy and mentor is Fred "Boeing-747-from-a-tornado-in-a-junkyard-fallacy" Hoyle.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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le Penseur
Banned
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2011 : 15:58:02 [Permalink]
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DaveW: | It's only when he was asked why he didn't collect physical evidence that he tried to deny it, in a fit of obviously ad hoc excuse-making. |
"I didn't think to grab an ET ashtray because I was ten" is an excuse grounded in empirically verifiable human nature.
That le Penseur chose the indefensible route instead of the everyday one speaks volumes about him. I, for one, would have found his whole shtick more tolerable had he thrown us such a bone to gnaw on once in a while. |
| Actually, he presented them with less than total control. From his first story: / The aliens obviously are neither perfect mind readers nor perfect mind controllers. / He tried to change the premises of the story |
Normal, everyday, well-supported explanation of why le Penseur didn't grab anything: he was ten.
Indefensible, ad hoc explanation without evidential support, even in his own stories: aliens have so much telepathic control that he couldn't possibly have grabbed anything.
It was the latter that le Penseur chose, of his own accord. |
Wow. Let me start my defense with an old Latin term; Ad hoc, my ass.
Let me be clear:
I was asked why I didn't steal something from the aliens. DaveW is saying I then invented the excuse "aliens have so much telepathic power I couldn't have possibly grabbed anything."
There are hundreds of documented cases of abductees describing the aliens as having these powerful, incapacitating, telepathic abilities, many cases going back before my birth. I Certainly didn't invent it, it has been widely reported for decades, but you accuse me of inventing it ad hoc? Balderdash!
If anything, you should accuse me of stealing it from X-Files episodes, I've heard that one before too.
But that was NOT my answer as to why I didn't steal something from the aliens. Here's what I said:
"Sounds like ample opportunity to grab an object from their ship,"
I have heard this one a lot, over the years. Why didn't I just grab something? "Just grab an ashtray," they'd say, seriously.
"An ashtray?" I'd repeat.
"You know, whatever.." No, I don't. Like what? Assuming the aliens don't smoke Parliaments, at least on the ships, what trinkets do they leave laying around? A shelf of curios? A glass menagerie? A set of keys, a harmonica?
The aliens don't leave things lying around for us to grab. I think they thought that one through pretty early on. Much like being put into a cop car and transported to a police station, not much there for someone to swipe from the cop car.
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That's the reason. There is nothing to grab. Simple as that. As if they are leaving advanced tools and gadgetry in our reach? Come on. No coffee mugs. No ashtrays. Dude says I should go through their garbage. What garbage? I saw no trash lying around. no light bulbs to unscrew, no doorknobs, no loose change, no candy wrappers or matchbooks.
I think they considered the possibility that we would want to grab something long before they started taking me, cause there was nothing lying around. For all I could tell, the entire ships were one seamless piece. Depending on which type of ship, that is.
I also said this:
there could be awful repercussions. My goal was always to get back home, and not to make matters dangerous.
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Trying to steal something from them could lead to who knows what? These are beings you do not want to piss off, if you can avoid it. My way through it each time was to go with the flow, sometimes I was given that CHOICE, other times I was not. It went easier if you cooperate, and you are treated with more respect by the aliens, to the point where they talk to you, answer questions, tell you things, sometimes teaching amazing things.
Stealing, even if there WERE something to steal, would be undiplomatic at best, and would impact badly on what I'd be able to learn. At worst it could be risking my life. And I would do this why? To bring back a scrap of something that you would all still whine about not being good enough evidence?. Not a logical thing for me to do.
To sum up. Reason why I didn't steal anything:
1. Nothing to steal.
2. Had there been something to steal, hypothetically, I am convinced the aliens could prevent an abductee from doing so through telepathy.
3. I think that level of resistance could be dangerous, taken as very unfriendly, and have serious consequences.
4.It would also limit my level of communication with them.
5.Most important, I'm just trying to do what I have to so they take me back home.
Nothing ad hoc about it.
I hope this clears up any confusion as to the "why didn't you grab something?" question. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2011 : 16:29:20 [Permalink]
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Ok, so there was nothing to steal. Fine. le Penseur, please explain what efforts you have made to gather evidence.
For instance, you mentioned painful probes. Did they leave any wounds and were these wounds examined by a doctor? Were any photos taken of your wounds? Many abductees claim to have been implanted with devices of unknown purpose during these probes. Were you ever implanted, and if so, were any of these implants recovered? Did any of your clothing come in contact with the aliens (i.e. did they ever touch you.) If so, did you ever send any these articles of clothing to be tested for non-terrestrial DNA?
You also still haven't addressed why you cannot produce a video of testimonials from all five individuals who can confirm your abduction account, nor why you've never attempted to photographically document an abduction event, nor why you will not produce pictures or videos taken by other people which you believe to be authentic and your methods of analysis.
There are a lot of potential avenues for you to begin substantiating the truth of your experiences. Is there some reason you are reluctant to do so?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 03/06/2011 16:30:55 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2011 : 16:29:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by le Penseur
To sum up. Reason why I didn't steal anything:
1. Nothing to steal.
2. Had there been something to steal, hypothetically, I am convinced the aliens could prevent an abductee from doing so through telepathy.
3. I think that level of resistance could be dangerous, taken as very unfriendly, and have serious consequences.
4.It would also limit my level of communication with them.
5.Most important, I'm just trying to do what I have to so they take me back home.
Nothing ad hoc about it. |
But it all is. I don't believe any of these answers as being on the mind of a ten-year-old. No ten-year-old who isn't River Tam-level intelligent (which would also preclude a normal childhood) is going to think that taking some trinket is "resistance" or worry about limiting communications with the aliens. These ideas include levels of abstraction that many adults don't reach.
In other words, these are five justifications you've come up with during the thirty-plus years since events in question. They're not the answer(s) you would have provided the day following your abductions. It's all very ad hoc indeed, and neatly explains your verb tense problems ("I am" instead of "I was," etc.). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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le Penseur
Banned
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2011 : 19:25:09 [Permalink]
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daveW.
The day after WHICH abduction? the one where I was 5 years old or the one when I was ten? Or an abduction I haven't detailed yet?
I stated this clearly just above. There was nothing to steal. No other reason need enter the equation. Simple as that.
But you show a real lapse in logic and rationality when you say: | I don't believe any of these answers as being on the mind of a ten-year-old. |
You "don't believe" that a ten year old would be scared to disobey these powerful beings?
You "don't believe" that there was nothing lying around for me to steal?
You "don't believe" that ten year old would be more concerned with being safely returned, than stealing something to prove my experience to somebody someday?
I already established that when I first tried to resist, they paralyzed me. Now why is it you "don't believe" that I wouldn't want to be treated that way again by resisting them again?
Your "disbelief" is without merit.
Those were indeed my feeling at the time of this incident, and not one of those feelings are inconsistent for a normal ten year old boy. In no way would it be unusual for a ten year old boy to be scared of these aliens, and not want to disobey these frightening beings. Nor would a ten year old want to be paralyzed, and it is perfectly normal for ANYBODY to want to go home.
It's not my answers that don't make sense, quite the opposite, in fact, it is your question. The one thing a normal ten year old boy would NOT be thinking about during this experience would be trying to steal something!
Why would I ? At that point in my life I had never told anyone outside of the family my experiences, and so I never had anyone disbelieve me. No one telling me it didn't happen, and no one demanding proof.
You're not making sense, DaveW., and you grow more illogical and irrational with every post. Ad hoc, my ass. |
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alienist
Skeptic Friend
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2011 : 19:53:55 [Permalink]
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| So, le penseur, you still haven't answered my question. If the world is in such danger from aliens, why are you still talking to skeptics. I assume this means the world is not in danger.... |
The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well! - Joe Ancis |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2011 : 20:16:57 [Permalink]
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le Penseur. You are not understanding Dave. What he's saying is your best answer is that you were only ten and you weren't thinking ahead, which would be normal. All of the other stuff is you just speculating on reasons that you don't need to speculate on. I mean, were you actually thinking about stuff lying around to take? If not, why give reasons for why you didn't take anything? That's the ad hoc part.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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le Penseur
Banned
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2011 : 20:29:00 [Permalink]
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humbert: Did any of your clothing come in contact with the aliens (i.e. did they ever touch you.) If so, did you ever send any these articles of clothing to be tested for non-terrestrial DNA?
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Non-terrestrial DNA? Where do they test for that, exactly? Please provide their address and contact information so we can get the ball rolling on that. And what year did they start providing this public service?Did they have any branches in upstate new york in the 1970s?
| You also still haven't addressed why you cannot produce a video of testimonials from all five individuals who can confirm your abduction account |
We have already done so, All five of us were interviewed extensively by both Budd Hopkins of the Intruder Foundation and Oliver Kamansky (sp?) from the canceled Sci-FI channel TV show Alien Hunters. They recorded our interviews regarding this encounter and many others, and those interviews are in their possession. I suggest you contact them, if you're truly interested. I am not in possession of their tapes, however.
| nor why you've never attempted to photographically document an abduction event, |
Whoa Nellie! I never said any such thing.
| nor why you will not produce pictures or videos taken by other people which you believe to be authentic and your methods of analysis. |
I will cooperate with you in this endeavor immediately if you like, but I don't have time to pore over youtube. So you provide any links you want to alleged UFO footage, and I will tell you if I believe it to be genuine or fake, and I will certainly share my methodology in doing so. This actually sounds like it could be fun! I look forward to it, in a way. It could provide a way for us to agree on a number of frauds. This invitation is open to everybody. We may find some common ground.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2011 : 20:46:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by le Penseur
daveW.
The day after WHICH abduction? the one where I was 5 years old or the one when I was ten? |
You think a five-year-old would be better at abstracting the value of communications per se?| Or an abduction I haven't detailed yet? |
Right...| I stated this clearly just above. There was nothing to steal. No other reason need enter the equation. Simple as that. |
Why would a ten-year-old even think to steal something?But you show a real lapse in logic and rationality when you say: | I don't believe any of these answers as being on the mind of a ten-year-old. |
You "don't believe" that a ten year old would be scared to disobey these powerful beings?
You "don't believe" that there was nothing lying around for me to steal?
You "don't believe" that ten year old would be more concerned with being safely returned, than stealing something to prove my experience to somebody someday?
I already established that when I first tried to resist, they paralyzed me. Now why is it you "don't believe" that I wouldn't want to be treated that way again by resisting them again?
Your "disbelief" is without merit. |
No, what I don't believe is that a ten-year-old would verbalize any of the reasons you've offered up. If I were to ask an average ten-year-old why he didn't swipe anything from an alien ship he'd just been released from, odds are the answer would be "I dunno." I don't believe a ten-year-old would even think to steal anything, so I don't believe that you went through such convoluted thought processes (which would escape many adults' comprehension) when you were ten and aboard an alien ship.| Those were indeed my feeling at the time of this incident, and not one of those feelings are inconsistent for a normal ten year old boy. |
The language certainly is, which is part of the problem of believability.| It's not my answers that don't make sense, quite the opposite, in fact, it is your question. The one thing a normal ten year old boy would NOT be thinking about during this experience would be trying to steal something! |
That's exactly my point. That's what would make "I was ten" a much more believable answer to "why didn't you steal anything?" than anything you've provided.
And that also makes your insistence, above, that the five reasons you've given were your feelings "at the time" and not inconsistent with being ten pure baloney. You can't have it both ways. Either you were a hyper-intelligent (and thus not normal) child who, at age ten, thought to steal something on an alien ship but (a) found nothing, (b) feared stealing would anger his captors and reduce communications with them and (c) probably would have been prevented from stealing had the opportunity arisen, or you were a normal ten-year-old who was so amazed and frightened by the whole ordeal that stealing something didn't even enter your mind. Which is it?| You're not making sense, DaveW., and you grow more illogical and irrational with every post. Ad hoc, my ass. |
You're clearly not paying attention, and you're having trouble maintaining a grasp on the context of the discussion. Since you keep changing the subject in your own mind, my responses do look irrational, I'm sure. If, on the other hand, you'd get a grip on yourself and think about what I'm saying before you fly off the handle, my replies might look more reasonable. Hell, in this response, you argued my point for me while you thought you were arguing against me, so I'm obviously not the one with the problem, here. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2011 : 20:51:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by le Penseur
I will cooperate with you in this endeavor immediately if you like, but I don't have time to pore over youtube. So you provide any links you want to alleged UFO footage, and I will tell you if I believe it to be genuine or fake, and I will certainly share my methodology in doing so. This actually sounds like it could be fun! I look forward to it, in a way. It could provide a way for us to agree on a number of frauds. This invitation is open to everybody. We may find some common ground. |
Okay. How about UFOs over Haiti? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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le Penseur
Banned
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2011 : 21:12:40 [Permalink]
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aAlienist | So, le penseur, you still haven't answered my question. If the world is in such danger from aliens, why are you still talking to skeptics. I assume this means the world is not in danger.... |
Don't worry alienist, this is just a hobby, in my day job I'm a Superhero.
Why talk to skeptics? I've spent plenty of time communicating in the UFO community, but after a point it's preaching to the choir. And I've seen a lot of in-fighting, and back stabbing among organizations as respectable as MUFON. I've seen would-be abductees in pissing contests over who had been taken to the coolest home-world, "You've been to six planets? I've been to ten!" Not to mention those with reality issues. Of course, they can say the same about me.
Why come here? Well, it seemed like a chance to speak to intelligent people who already had an interest in the topic of ufos and aliens. But it seems more that their interest is in denying than in learning and discussing.
Still, I felt perhaps the problem was they just hadn't had a chance to actually speak with a relatively intelligent, literate person who had the experience of alien contact and was willing to talk about it openly and honestly.
WHOA<<< As I sit here typing this, the prime time television ads ....first an ad for the alien film BATTLE :LA. Then an ad for the NBC alien tv show The Event. then an ad for the alien movie Paul!
In case you guys haven't noticed, there is a campaign of gradual disclosure taking place. The govt can no longer keep it out of the public eye so they are preparing society for the inevitable truth. This constant increase of aliens in the media is not accidental. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2011 : 21:24:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by le Penseur
WHOA<<< As I sit here typing this, the prime time television ads ....first an ad for the alien film BATTLE :LA. Then an ad for the NBC alien tv show The Event. then an ad for the alien movie Paul!
In case you guys haven't noticed, there is a campaign of gradual disclosure taking place. The govt can no longer keep it out of the public eye so they are preparing society for the inevitable truth. This constant increase of aliens in the media is not accidental. |
Couldn't possibly be that alien stories mean big bucks (as I've already established, bigger than vampires and zombies, almost put together), and that the media doesn't want to lose out on the cash? It'd be interesting to see a historical chart of the ET-related economy as a percentage of GDP. I'd wager that even though the films were much cheesier, the fifties had a much higher percentage than today, contra your "constant increase." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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ETs are here, despite guesses to the contrary
