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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 03/07/2011 : 08:25:23 [Permalink]
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I am far from convinced that this whole thing, riddled with dues ex machnia as it is, is not some sort of elaborate poe. If it is, then I salute le Penseur with a well--earned "Well Done!" Nobody loves a good poe more than I, and this one is a doozy.
But if it is not a poe and he's serious, then I must ask: Why the hell bring it in here? Or any skeptic forum, for that matter. He's mentioned at the beginning of this massacree that he'd gone to other forums and was not treated kindly. This would have told anyone paying attention that the claims were consididered woo of the finest water. Which they are, simply because there is as yet no way to falsify them. He cannot produce the aliens nor even trace evidence of their existence. We cannot prove that they don't exist.
See the problem here? We're playing Ring Around the Rosy when there is no Rosy to be had. Oh, what a lovely poe!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2011 : 09:46:05 [Permalink]
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Does the conversation about when the most sci fi and movies about alien's coming to earth really matter to this conversation? We know that aliens were a big deal in movies and television and other media in the fifties and really, somewhat before the fifties. That's just a fact no matter what the GDP was at the time.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2011 : 10:30:33 [Permalink]
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Ever heard of Gary Barker?
Gray Barker: My Friend, the Myth-Maker
"They Knew Too Much about Flying Saucers made the Men in Black (M.I.B.) feared within UFO circles during the late 1950s and 1960s. The book now is hard to find, and my hardcover copy — the third printing — has crispy pages. In it, Gray told about alleged brushes between the sinister M.I.B. and a Connecticut man, Al K. Bender, who set the pace for what is now the stereotypical M.I.B. story: Someone sees a UFO and tries to tell the world about it. Without warning, three men in black suits and driving a big black car confront the witness. Afterwards, the witness appears too frightened to talk further about the UFO — or anything else. Woo-WOOO-oo!
In account after account within the pages of They Knew Too Much and subsequent writings by others (including John Keel, who began using the shorthand “M.I.B.” in his writings), the mysterious trio — who at times seem to have uncanny mental powers and weird, otherworldly faces — squelch all discussion about supposedly true UFO encounters. The whole notion smacked of a huge, pre-Watergate conspiracy.
As I began to write this apologetic revelation in July 1997, the news came that the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency indeed may have participated in a coverup not unlike that supposedly initiated by the fabled M.I.B. U.S. intelligence historian Gerald K. Haines wrote an unclassified article for Studies of Intelligence, a CIA journal, revealing that during the 1950s the U.S. Air Force and other agencies actually did conspire to suppress the UFO issue and to concoct false cover stories to explain sightings of such super-secret U.S. spy planes as the U-2 and later the SR-71 Blackbird (the Internet address for Haines’s study is odci.gov).
So, Bender, Barker, and the rest indeed may have been inspired by a grain (or several grains) of truth. But that doesn't contradict what I am about to disclose about Barker’s participation in — and encouragement of — actual fraud to perpetuate sales of his UFO books and magazines... |
I also recommend the movie, Shades of Gray, about Gary Barker which can be had on Netflix. I saw it on instant download. This one guy invented much that the UFO community accepts as fact now. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2011 : 12:16:07 [Permalink]
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Originally quoted by Kil
...a Connecticut man, Al K. Bender... |
Middle name 'Kaholic'?
Originally posted by Kil
Does the conversation about when the most sci fi and movies about alien's coming to earth really matter to this conversation? |
No, it started with a throw-away comment from me ("It'd be interesting to see...") and le Penseur pounced on it to avoid discussing the substantive remark I made in the same post (that Hollywood keeps chugging out ET flicks because they're good money, and not because the government is forcing them to do so to get us all used to the idea of dealing with aliens).
le Penseur also seemed to be really excited about that Haiti UFO video, but we're getting nothing but silence now, despite the time he's spending on snide remarks about sci-fi economics. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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le Penseur
Banned
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2011 : 13:01:36 [Permalink]
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I understand percentages. Like, I understand you were 100% out of your mind to propose such a preposterous comparison. But, on to the Haiti UFO footage you posted.
This was genuinely fun!
VERDICT: 100% FRAUD. Deliberate hoax. I could have called this one by a still photo./
1. The Ships. They look nothing like any actual alien ship I've seen, far too elaborate in design. This is a result of the influence of George Lucas and Steven Spielberg, they portray these elaborate alien ships, with lots of delicate external features; thin spiky rods jutting off the hull (curb feelers? CB radios?). The ships hull is made up of elaborate shapes, boxy compartmentalization, antennae or what-not sitting atop the craft, again jutting out awkwardly, like the radar dish and other delicate crap that made up the surface of the Millennium Falcon. At one point from underneath it resembles something organic, like a flower almost, with wispy curling strands jutting off, and angular curved plates like a pine-cone. A nice piece for a sci-fi movie, but it doesn't resemble an real alien ship.
2. The lights on the ship. Not even a decent effort to capture the intensity and beauty of alien lights. No colors, no pattern of changing colors.
3. As the ships went overhead, they made a faint yet distinct sound.Alien ships are silent.
4. The cheesy gasp of a woman at the beginning. Not even close to the panicked utterances that really take place when people have genuine sightings.
5. The too-competent camera work. The clarity and focus. No shaky hand? Come on. And the choreographed ease with which the camera panned with the ships passage overhead? Not a chance. Real footage has the people losing focus, losing tracking, lowering the camera occasionally because they lost sight in the eyepiece. Then struggling to regain focus.
6. The sheer NUMBER of alien ships in the final seconds. Such overkill. Way too many. It looks like a battle scene from the Phantom Menace. Beyond silly.
7. The lack of people screaming. When the real deal goes down, people freak out. I man Really freak out.
8. The movement of the ships. Far too smooth, real alien ships stop, hover, dart one way or the other quickly in jerky movements.
9. Finally, and most importantly, there is an effect that is visible when an actual alien ship is in operation that these ship do not display. I don't want to give away what that effect is, at this point, but I will end up disclosing this important distinction as we go, I'm certain.
Thanks, Dave, this was fun. Anybody have some BETTER footage for me to examine? Looking forward to it!
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le Penseur
Banned
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2011 : 13:26:01 [Permalink]
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Humbert: | Aliens dominated the popular culture and entertainment of the 1950s, much more so than today. |
Sorry Humbert, but that isn't even close to being true.In fact, Cowboys dominated the culture of the 1950s to a much greater degree than aliens ever did. You name a few alien movies, but I can name well over 100 alien films from 2000-now. As far as TV shows, There were far more in the last decade than in the 1950s. and the gap widens from there in other media.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 03/07/2011 : 13:41:41 [Permalink]
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Something of interest:
NASA speaks out boldly on the ‘bacteria from space’ claims
Category: Science
Posted on: March 7, 2011 12:09 PM, by PZ Myers
That was sarcasm in the title, everyone. NASA has released a public statement in which they gingerly edge away from Hoover's paper.
NASA is a scientific and technical agency committed to a culture of openness with the media and public. While we value the free exchange of ideas, data, and information as part of scientific and technical inquiry, NASA cannot stand behind or support a scientific claim unless it has been peer-reviewed or thoroughly examined by other qualified experts. This paper was submitted in 2007 to the International Journal of Astrobiology. However, the peer review process was not completed for that submission. NASA also was unaware of the recent submission of the paper to the Journal of Cosmology or of the paper's subsequent publication. Additional questions should be directed to the author of the paper.
In other words, "What paper? We don't know nothin' about that paper."
It's disappointing cover-their-butts bureaucratese from an organization that, as a science and engineering institution, ought to have a rather more demanding attitude about rigor and evidence. Oh, well. It's one small step for a bureaucracy; one giant leap…which a bureaucrat won't take.
By the way, my phone has been busy over this nonsense today. I don't quite know what it is, but for some reason the initial claim of "Life in space!" struck a chord with many people, and the fact that a number of scientists are quickly replying with "No, it isn't" is making some people very, very angry. We're also seeing a lot of that infuriated rejection of the rejection in the comments here.
I think many confuse their wish to see evidence of extraterrestrial life with the evidence for extraterrestrial life. Personally, I'd love to see the discovery of life that originated elsewhere other than our world — that would provide a radically different insight into evolution. I know there has been evidence of organic molecules in space, and I suspect that life does exist on other planets (possibly even other planets in our solar system), but I'm not going to accept a claim of discovery without adequate evidence. |
Bolding mine.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2011 : 13:47:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by le Penseur
Humbert: | Aliens dominated the popular culture and entertainment of the 1950s, much more so than today. |
Sorry Humbert, but that isn't even close to being true.In fact, Cowboys dominated the culture of the 1950s to a much greater degree than aliens ever did. You name a few alien movies, but I can name well over 100 alien films from 2000-now. As far as TV shows, There were far more in the last decade than in the 1950s. and the gap widens from there in other media. |
Yeah, you may be right. My attempts to find hard numbers have been fruitless. I'd be curious to find out for sure, though. Not to make any particular point, just because I'm interested.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2011 : 15:49:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by le Penseur
I understand percentages. Like, I understand you were 100% out of your mind to propose such a preposterous comparison. |
Yet you've got no percentages with which to support your claim that it's preposterous. But anyway...But, on to the Haiti UFO footage you posted.
This was genuinely fun!
VERDICT: 100% FRAUD. Deliberate hoax. I could have called this one by a still photo./
1. The Ships. They look nothing like any actual alien ship I've seen, far too elaborate in design. This is a result of the influence of George Lucas and Steven Spielberg, they portray these elaborate alien ships, with lots of delicate external features; thin spiky rods jutting off the hull (curb feelers? CB radios?). The ships hull is made up of elaborate shapes, boxy compartmentalization, antennae or what-not sitting atop the craft, again jutting out awkwardly, like the radar dish and other delicate crap that made up the surface of the Millennium Falcon. At one point from underneath it resembles something organic, like a flower almost, with wispy curling strands jutting off, and angular curved plates like a pine-cone. A nice piece for a sci-fi movie, but it doesn't resemble an real alien ship.
2. The lights on the ship. Not even a decent effort to capture the intensity and beauty of alien lights. No colors, no pattern of changing colors.
3. As the ships went overhead, they made a faint yet distinct sound.Alien ships are silent.
4. The cheesy gasp of a woman at the beginning. Not even close to the panicked utterances that really take place when people have genuine sightings.
5. The too-competent camera work. The clarity and focus. No shaky hand? Come on. And the choreographed ease with which the camera panned with the ships passage overhead? Not a chance. Real footage has the people losing focus, losing tracking, lowering the camera occasionally because they lost sight in the eyepiece. Then struggling to regain focus.
6. The sheer NUMBER of alien ships in the final seconds. Such overkill. Way too many. It looks like a battle scene from the Phantom Menace. Beyond silly.
7. The lack of people screaming. When the real deal goes down, people freak out. I man Really freak out.
8. The movement of the ships. Far too smooth, real alien ships stop, hover, dart one way or the other quickly in jerky movements.
9. Finally, and most importantly, there is an effect that is visible when an actual alien ship is in operation that these ship do not display. I don't want to give away what that effect is, at this point, but I will end up disclosing this important distinction as we go, I'm certain. |
The thing that gives it away is the copy-and-pasted palm trees.
No need to go on at length about how alien ships behave or look, or even imply that the aliens cannot mind-control a large population into silence, when all one needs to do is notice that all the palm trees are identical.
But now that you've given us five minutes on your methods for telling that that particular video was fake, perhaps you'll spend another five minutes telling us your method to determine when a government agent says something fake. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2011 : 16:38:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by le Penseur
Humbert: | Aliens dominated the popular culture and entertainment of the 1950s, much more so than today. |
Sorry Humbert, but that isn't even close to being true. |
I'll let filthy, Halfmooner, and bngbuck be the judge of that.
As long as there's no actual statistics to calculate from, I'll consider their testemony senior to yours, le Penseur, since you're quite younger than them.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2011 : 17:31:13 [Permalink]
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Le Penseur....
Thank you for your courteous response!| bngbuck, I have finished answering the "why I didn't steal from the aliens" question, and I feel I have done so in a very thorough and clear manner. Thanks for your concern. |
Excellent. I am glad that you have finished with that relatively unimportant nit -picking and are back talking about the important stuff. Please understand that my post on the subject of "how could a ten year old steal from the aliens" was directed to Dave, not to you. I was, and am, stoutly defending you! I felt that at least three of his ad hoc judgments were incorrect and extremely premature!
You ask: | I was wondering why you disappeared. |
Dissappeared? My god, man, you can't have read all of the posts since you last addressed me - I have posted several times every day, many times directly to you! Starting with the third post on page 15, it's gone like this:
Page 15-----Post # 3-----March 3-----bng asks LP 5 questions.
Page 16-----Post # 9-----March 3
Page 16-----Post #15-----March 3-----LP responds to bng
Page 17-----Post # 5-----March 3
Page 17-----Post #11-----March 4-----LP comments to bng
Page 18-----Post # 3-----March 4
Page 19-----Post # 7-----March 4
Page 19-----Post #24-----March 4
Page 20-----Post # 1-----March 4
Page 20-----Post # 2-----March 4
Page 20-----Post # 5-----March 4
Page 20-----Post # 6-----March 4
Page 20-----Post # 9-----March 4
Page 20-----Post #10-----March 4
Page 20-----Post #13-----March 5
Page 20-----Post #14-----March 5
Page 21-----Post # 1-----March 5
Page 21-----Post # 6-----March 5
Page 21-----Post # 7-----March 5
Page 21-----Post #10-----March 5
Page 22-----Post #13-----March 6
Page 22-----Post #14-----March 6
Page 22-----Post #15-----March 6
Page 24-----Post #11-----March 7
Page 24-----Post #12-----March 7
Page 24-----Post #13-----March 7-----LP answers bng's #1 question
That's 22 posts in five days that I have made after first asking you to answer 5 questions about aliens, many of them asking the same alien question or questions.. However, I really do understand how overwhelming and demanding this experience must be to you! I really did not disappear, I was seriously trying to fight my way through the flak and ask a sensible question about the aliens!
But it is no wonder that you have missed many of my posts.. I went through a very similar experience back in August '07 when I first joined here! I tried my damdest to cope with the tsunami of questions, abuse, interest, comment, and off-topic shit that descended on me after innocently trying to seriously bring up the flash-point subject of UAP. I had absolutely no concept of the enormous attention that UAP/ET subject matter has here. Look at this thread of yours - 326 replies, 25 pages of thread and counting!
The trouble is, you are dealing with a fair size group (maybe 10 or 12) of pretty smart folks that are firing everything from spitballs and feces to highly intelligent and well-thought out questions and comment at you. All at once! Nobody can adequately deal with it! So don't be offended please. If you had the time to sit down and do nothing but post on these SFN Forums, you could barely handle it! Some want to fight, some want to show off, some want to comment, and a few want to learn!
I'm certainly not going to name names, I did some of that and all hell broke loose! My bad! But you can easily reach your own conclusions about who is seriously interested and who is simply rattling your cage. But please take the time to carefully read ALL of the posts made here on your thread1
Thank you for your intriguing answer to my question about the alien's origins. As soon as you find time, would you consider answering my question #2 | 2. Are the aliens with whom you had direct experience, or others, responsible for some, or many of the several million "UFO" reports over the last hundred and fifty years? |
Thank you very much, Le Penseur for considering my requests. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2011 : 17:35:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by le Penseur
Humbert: | Aliens dominated the popular culture and entertainment of the 1950s, much more so than today. |
Sorry Humbert, but that isn't even close to being true. |
I'll let filthy, Halfmooner, and bngbuck be the judge of that.
As long as there's no actual statistics to calculate from, I'll consider their testemony senior to yours, le Penseur, since you're quite younger than them.
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I don't really know the numbers. I do know that there was a hell of a lot of them in the '50s, mostly downright awful. There was also a lot of horror flicks with few redeeming qualities. There was a few, however, of both genres, that were excellent.
What this fulminating mass of cheap schlock tells us is that in the '50s, a good buck could be made off cheap schlock, and so they turned out a plethora of it.
It needs to be remembered, though, that in the '50s the technology to make '70s quality movies was lacking. They could crank 'em out well enough, but the best viewing medium was Cinemascope, and special effects was still a relativly crude art form. So what we're looking at is quantity over quality. I recall seeing a couple that looked like they wrote the script as they went along. Also, we were barely getting used to television, and everybody smoked too much except me. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2011 : 18:45:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Please understand that my post on the subject of "how could a ten year old steal from the aliens" was directed to Dave, not to you. I was, and am, stoutly defending you! I felt that at least three of his ad hoc judgments were incorrect and extremely premature! |
That's odd, since le Penseur and I seem to be in agreement that the real reason he didn't steal anything was because he was ten and the idea didn't even enter his mind, as I suggested would be a good answer. Whether or not there are other reasons which might be plausible for a generic ten-year-old is irrelevant, especially when my objections were based on what makes le Penseur's post-event justifications detract from the story for me. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2011 : 18:57:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by le Penseur
Anybody have some BETTER footage for me to examine? |
Don't know about "better," but try the UFO over Moscow.
I'm sure you'll complain about the shape and behavior of the UFO again, but even if I grant that you've been abducted, I couldn't possibly give credence to the idea that you've seen every configuration of craft from every space-faring culture. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2011 : 19:44:48 [Permalink]
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Dave.....
| I couldn't possibly give credence to the idea that you've seen every configuration of craft from every space-faring culture. |
Neither could I, nor anyone I can think of.....No one could.
| .... even if I grant that you've been abducted..... |
What specific form of conditional did you intend that predicate to denote? |
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ETs are here, despite guesses to the contrary
