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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 03/18/2011 : 11:51:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Some others here have expressed the view that that they don't think LP was deluded, insane, mentally defective, etc. I agree; he is too intelligent, informed, quick-witted, and writes too well to be any of those.
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The latter does not necessarily exclude the former. Besides, I wouldn't count on you to judge the latter, either, bngbuck.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2011 : 12:01:36 [Permalink]
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Dr. Mabuse......
Thank you for your opinions, Doctor. I was unaware of your multi-disciplinary skills. I will review your commentary with diligence. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2011 : 12:11:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by le Penseur
No, davew, it seems you have. By light years, maybe. |
Your point seems to be that you couldn't possibly have unconsciously drawn the image of the aliens and their abilities from popular culture, because you were too young and/or you didn't have enough TV channels and/or the aliens on TV weren't the right sort. How far off was that summation? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf
USA
1487 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2011 : 13:02:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Thor.....
What breed of dog is the beautiful pup in your avatar picture? It looks like a Shiba Inu. We share our home with two of these marvelous animals from Japan, and the male pup is a dead ringer for the one that posed for your avatar!
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Hi, bngbuck. I discovered the pic for my avatar at Deviant Art. I think the breed is based on a white wolf. The artist gave me permission to use it for non-commercial use. I tried to donate to the artist but PayPal doesn't allow payment to Russia.
http://goodwolf.deviantart.com/
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| Edited by - ThorGoLucky on 03/18/2011 13:09:27 |
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le Penseur
Banned
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2011 : 21:03:15 [Permalink]
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davew : | Your point seems to be that you couldn't possibly have unconsciously drawn the image of the aliens and their abilities from popular culture, because you were too young and/or you didn't have enough TV channels and/or the aliens on TV weren't the right sort. How far off was that summation? |
Jesus Christ, dave, I spelled this out clearly as could be 2 posts back. Let me use less words this time, okay?
: No, that is NOT my point. My point is that I couldn't possibly have unconsciously drawn the image of the aliens and their abilities from popular culture - because there WERE NO images of these beings in the popular culture. The cartoon images of martians? The muppet martians? Spock? superboy? They bear no resemblance to the real alien beings. As I stated before, to the point where we didn't even think of these beings as aliens. We called them "men, but not men", or "like men".
Is that clear to you yet? I repeat, even if I had seen ALL of the fictional pop martians and muppets you name, there was nothing to connect them with the beings I encountered.
And I stress again, that the cartoon depictions of aliens, the sci Fi depictions of aliens, and the fact that ALL the aliens and martians you cite in pop culture are presented as FICTIONAL - only ADDED to the reasons we did not connect these beings with martians, muppets, or vulcans.
I told you before, it wasn't until Close Encounters that we saw something on the screen that we could connect to.
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| Edited by - le Penseur on 03/19/2011 00:51:05 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2011 : 22:22:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by le Penseur
Jesus Christ, dave, lay off the stupid pills. |
So much for replying to Kil.I spelled this out clearly as could be 2 posts back. Let me use less words this time, okay?
: No, that is NOT my point. My point is that I couldn't possibly have unconsciously drawn the image of the aliens and their abilities from popular culture - because there WERE NO images of these beings in the popular culture. |
Yes, there were. Using all-caps doesn't change that fact. Some claim that the image you're talking about dates back to the 19th century. Others cite a 1964 episode of The Outer Limits, and others still cite Betty and Barney Hill. All of them predate your first abduction.
You're the only person I know who claims that Close Encounters of the Third Kind is the source of that particular alien stereotype in popular culture. But Speilberg wasn't being original with anything in that movie. It didn't resonate with the public because it was wholly strange to them.| The cartoon images of martians? The muppet martians? Spock? superboy? They bear no resemblance to the real alien beings. |
Those examples were only a part of my point, which included both how the aliens look and how they act. I have no reason to think that you, as a five-year-old with a TV in your room, didn't mash together lots of different pop-culture motifs in your head. Convincing me that you didn't is going to take more than insisting that objective history is wrong.| As I stated before, to the point where we didn't even think of these beings as aliens. We called them "men, but not men", or "like men". |
I really don't see how your conscious ignorance of the popular culture at age five is a point against pop-culture icons possibly being the source of your experiences. That is what I'm arguing, after all, so it turns out that you're agreeing with me even when you think you're successfully disassembling my argument. That's what makes it even more laughable.| Is that clear to you yet? I repeat, even if I had seen ALL of the fictional pop martians and muppets you name, there was nothing to connect them with the beings I encountered. |
You can repeat it all you like. Your repetitions of a falsehood won't make it magically become true.| And I stress again, that the cartoon depictions of aliens, the sci Fi depictions of aliens, and the fact that ALL the aliens and martians you cite in pop culture are presented as FICTIONAL - only ADDED to the reasons we did not connect these beings with martians, muppets, or vulcans. |
Indeed! If you'd ever made the connection, you probably wouldn't be here. Being five was a definite handicap to making such a connection, of course. Five-year-olds often have a difficult time separating fiction from reality.| I told you before, it wasn't until Close Encounters that we saw something on the screen that we could connect to. |
And I told you before, that's historically wrong, especially given that "the screen" isn't the only source of pop-culture images. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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le Penseur
Banned
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2011 : 01:00:04 [Permalink]
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davew : | the image you're talking about |
Here's how full of shit Dave is - I haven't described what these alien beings look like yet, in any detail.
I have referenced that the "Close Encounters" aliens were the first to resemble the real aliens to ANY degree, but they are far from accurate either.
So what the hell is this blowhard even talking about? Go back to pulling Sesame Street clips, dave.
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le Penseur
Banned
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2011 : 01:37:03 [Permalink]
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me: | I repeat, even if I had seen ALL of the fictional pop martians and muppets you name, there was nothing to connect them with the beings I encountered. |
davew: | You can repeat it all you like. Your repetitions of a falsehood won't make it magically become true. |
Now this guy is calling me a liar? Why don't you tell me in what way your muppets and marvin the martian resemble the beings I encountered?
You have failed again and again to establish That I was incorrect when I said "I had no idea these beings existed" before I encountered them directly at age 5.
And you ignore the biggest evidence that supports me; YOU, davew have seen all those muppets and martians, and you are STILL unaware these beings exist.
That about says it all. You can't find fault in me for not knowing they existed at a young age, when you are STILL to this day unaware they exist.
davew rants on, pretending he knows all about five year olds, and me in particular. I asked dave for some evidence he studied psychiatry at a collegiate level, either under-grad or post grad, but he ignores quite a bit of what is said to him. : | I have no reason to think that you, as a five-year-old with a TV in your room, didn't mash together lots of different pop-culture motifs in your head. |
Wow. After I established that absolutely NONE of dave's pop aliens in any way resembled the beings I encountered, dave gets desperate, knitting a new conspiracy theory that I "mashed together" the muppets + marvin the martian + spock + the guy from "The Day the Earth Stood Still" (who looked completely human) at age five, and came up with the beings I encountered.
I have to admit I'm starting to find dave, and a few others in here, to be less than perfectly sane. |
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le Penseur
Banned
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2011 : 03:03:25 [Permalink]
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Kil writes : | Can you clarify here? How is it that another star system that exists in this dimension can be described by aliens from another dimension if their travel isn't intersteller? If they're from another dimension, how would they have knowledge of other star systems in this dimension? Maps of them even? What would be the use of such a map to aliens who are from "right here" and travel inter-dimensionally? |
Good Questions, thank you. First, I have no idea if the beings that abducted Betty and Barney Hill are the same beings or even related to the beings that abducted me. Without going back and looking over the Hill case, I seen to recall some said those aliens may have something to do with a binary star system in our dimension, others say that the aliens that abducted them claim to come from Zeta Reticuli (sp?)
There are dozens of alien races and sub-types visiting the Earth, according to a NATO Security Official, over 50 types of aliens. I cant say The Hills aliens are the same as mine. That's something to keep in mind.
I do believe the aliens I have dealt with originate in another dimension, another plane of reality, absolutely.
But when I say they travel interdimensionally rather than interstellarly, I'm saying they are able to pass through their dimension into ours, arriving at their destination in our reality instantly. I have no reason to believe the Earth is their only destination in our reality, in fact I know they are at least active on the Moon as well. I have no reason to doubt that they could pass through from their dimension to Zeta Reticuli, or anywhere else.
Interstellar travel would mean they come from one star system to another. To travel from a point in our space to another point in a linear manner, traveling every bit of the distance from one star system to the next, entering our solar system at Pluto...err, Neptune, past Uranus (Hey Now!), Saturn, Jupiter, towards Earth. That is not how the aliens I encountered traverse space.
Why would they need a map if they can instantly hop from one spot to another? I don't know. Maybe they still have to know where those destinations are. Columbus came to a whole new vast world and started mapping it. And mapping is still used to land the space shuttle.
Kil :"If they're from another dimension, how would they have knowledge of other star systems in this dimension?" I think this is alike asking, "If Columbus is from Europe, then how could he know about Hispaniola AND Cuba?" Because when he got here, he poked around.
I will say I never saw a map per se, but there were a lot of displays I did not understand the purpose of. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 03/19/2011 : 03:17:11 [Permalink]
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Here's how full of shit Dave is - I haven't described what these alien beings look like yet, in any detail.
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Hmm, I seem to recall asking about that very thing some 20 miles or so back down the road -- not how full of shit Dave is, but the other thingy.
Will we (1) ever have a description of these critters? Does (2) the bullfrog bump it's ass when it hops?
(1) I dunno.
(2) No.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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le Penseur
Banned
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2011 : 04:36:42 [Permalink]
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Filthy < Yes, I do seem to recall you asking that, I'm sorry I let that go so long unanswered. I got caught up in the messy business of feeding angry baby trolls.
I will reply to you forthwith. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2011 : 05:07:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by le Penseur
Filthy < Yes, I do seem to recall you asking that, I'm sorry I let that go so long unanswered. I got caught up in the messy business of feeding angry baby trolls.
I will reply to you forthwith.
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I shall await the reply with baited breath -- baited breath is why I have no friends.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2011 : 05:39:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by le Penseur
Here's how full of shit Dave is - I haven't described what these alien beings look like yet, in any detail. |
You really don't need to.| I have referenced that the "Close Encounters" aliens were the first to resemble the real aliens to ANY degree, but they are far from accurate either. |
I'm sure.| So what the hell is this blowhard even talking about? |
Yes, I know you don't understand, and so you're lashing out.me: | I repeat, even if I had seen ALL of the fictional pop martians and muppets you name, there was nothing to connect them with the beings I encountered. |
davew: | You can repeat it all you like. Your repetitions of a falsehood won't make it magically become true. |
Now this guy is calling me a liar? |
No, just a wishful thinker.| Why don't you tell me in what way your muppets and marvin the martian resemble the beings I encountered? |
That's missing the point, again.| You have failed again and again to establish That I was incorrect when I said "I had no idea these beings existed" before I encountered them directly at age 5. |
I don't need to establish that your claim is wrong, you have to establish that it's correct. My point has only been that your claims about what you think you knew or didn't know at age five are not credible.| And you ignore the biggest evidence that supports me; YOU, davew have seen all those muppets and martians, and you are STILL unaware these beings exist. |
Well, nothing you've said has been at all convincing.| That about says it all. You can't find fault in me for not knowing they existed at a young age... |
If that's what you think I'm doing, then you've certainly missed the point.| davew rants on, pretending he knows all about five year olds, and me in particular. |
I claim no such knowledge. I've made very few claims about five-year-olds, actually, and expressed my disbelief about your claims.| I asked dave for some evidence he studied psychiatry at a collegiate level, either under-grad or post grad... |
Did I say anything about five-year-olds that's wrong? If not, what does my knowledge (or lack thereof) of psychiatry have to do with anything?| ...but he ignores quite a bit of what is said to him. |
You'll have room to complain about that after you've answered every question put to you.| Wow. After I established that absolutely NONE of dave's pop aliens in any way resembled the beings I encountered... |
That misses the point, again.| ...dave gets desperate, knitting a new conspiracy theory... |
There's nothing conspiratorial about a five-year-old's imagination.| ...that I "mashed together" the muppets + marvin the martian + spock + the guy from "The Day the Earth Stood Still" (who looked completely human) at age five, and came up with the beings I encountered. |
Well, I certainly didn't realize that there were only four aliens depicted in public by 1968.| I have to admit I'm starting to find dave, and a few others in here, to be less than perfectly sane. |
Pot, kettle, black. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2011 : 05:43:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by le Penseur
...I'm saying they are able to pass through their dimension into ours... |
How many of these "dimensions" do the aliens think there are? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2011 : 05:47:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by le Penseur
Interstellar travel would mean they come from one star system to another. To travel from a point in our space to another point in a linear manner, traveling every bit of the distance from one star system to the next, entering our solar system at Pluto...err, Neptune, past Uranus (Hey Now!), Saturn, Jupiter, towards Earth. That is not how the aliens I encountered traverse space. |
I don't think any reader here is locked into two-dimensional thinking. Even if aliens were to travel in straight lines between stars, they would arrive at Earth from an angle "above" (or below) the ecliptic.
If abductees have been to planets orbiting other stars, being able to name them would be helpful. If they could name a star with an earth-like planet which haven't been identified by the Kepler Space Telescope yet, you have a window of opportunity now which could boost your credence.
The validity of Betty Hills map have not yet been confirmed, and with the sparse details in it, probably never will. But telescopes have confirmed analogues to the Kupier Belt and Oort-cloud around the components of Zeta Reticuli, and so the presence of planetary systems it not unlikely. Even if the metal content of the stars are 40% lower than the Sun (=less likely to form large planetary bodies but still puts planetary systems in the range of probable).
Just to make sure le Penseur understands and recognises:
An argument or piece of evidence does not automatically count as proof for a theory or statement. It needs confirmation and falsifiability. And hopefully, the possibility of duplicating the results.
To a scientist or a skeptic, Betty's star map is not by itself proof of her abduction. Betty's claim that it's a map on Zeta Reticuli is not evidence that it is such a star map. It needs corroboration. The validity of her map is plausible. But plausible is not enough while the validity of the map is still in question. There are several hypothesis about what her map is actually showing, and as long as we cannot definitely rule them out, we cannot positively claim it is a map with Zeta Reticuli in the center.
What we are left with is the anecdotal testimony of Betty Hill, and unfortunately that isn't enough. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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ETs are here, despite guesses to the contrary
