|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 02/28/2011 : 12:32:37 [Permalink]
|
This thread has become boring to the point of torture. Nobody wants to read this back-biting. You guys need to either get really vicious, in which case I'll join in with gusto, or go back to discussing le Penseur's story in a sane and rational manner. Y'know, we are not the only ones who follow this site.
WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE LURKERS?! Lurkers get bored too. 
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
 |
|
|
bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2011 : 13:13:20 [Permalink]
|
Kil.....
Well, okay. I'm going to buck the trend here. Not that I don't agree with my fellow skeptics on the substantive issues involved. But I would like to hear the story. And probably for the same reason I go to see faith healers (like Braco) at the Conscious Life Expo, which I did just a couple of weeks ago. (Report in the works.)
There are many theories that explain alien abduction that don't include actually being abducted by aliens. But just like the woman who told me of her belief that her child was abused by the satanic cult at the McMartin preschool, I would like the chance to evaluate and perhaps have the chance to look over the literature on the explanations that our readers (and me) might not be aware of. I agree that physical evidence would be the only way to substantiate an alien abduction claim, but this also goes to other areas that I have an interest in and that I believe should be of interest to skeptics in general. The reliability of eye witness accounts and memory being a couple of those things. Hell, Carl Sagan named his last book after his take on claims of alien abductions. (Demon Haunted World refers to similar claims of demon abduction before UFO's entered our psyche and became a modern version of the phenomena, according to Sagan.)
In my view, we've just been handed a gift wrapped box. Lets see what's under the wrapping paper, eh?
I think I should also point out that there is the investigatory part of skepticism that leads to a determination about the truth value of a claim. And while that often leads to a debunking, debunking isn't the primary goal of our efforts.
So count me in. I'm all ears (or eyes as the case may be.)
Welcome to SFN, le Penseur. |
Thank you so much, Kil, for your excellent summary of the present condition of this thread and allow me to state that I am in substantial agreement with everything you said. I am particularly pleased that you chose to set the tone here as receptive instead of antagonistic, and I certainly hope that those who do respect your leadership, as well as those who require it, will let up a bit on LP until he has a chance to say his full piece, or else just quits in disgust.
It is my honest appraisal that there has been considerable improvement in the tone of the thread from the beginning to the present, rather than the deterioration thar Mabuse sees, what with the "well poisoning" reference to one of the textbook definitions of logical fallacy. If my intent or effort had been to counter some argument of Dave's directed to LP, the commentary might be valid in the context of the Critical Thinking textbook. However, I do not feel necessarily bound by such gospel any more than I feel bound by the Gospel of Saint Mark. I have clearly stated that I am certain that I am not a Critical Thinker constrained completely in my cognition by The Rules of Logical Fallacy. I have studied far too much academic philosophy to take such a primitive position, and if Mabuse wants to further explore that, I say, in the proud tradition of George W. Bush - "Bring It On!"
In any event, poisoned water or not, I am really pleased by much of the reception that LP has received here, including Dave's, and I personally applaud your decision to grant him a full hearing - fully understanding your reservations!
Do you have any new material to bring to the table concerning this difficult matter of how to produce dead aliens, or believable third party confirmation of LP's personal experiences? What kind of evidence can LP be reasonably expected to produce to even partially alleviate the "show me or shut up" syndrome? Can you imagine something? What would Dawkins say. Or PZ Myers? "Just ban the idiot?" Personally, I would take considerable issue and umbrage at that kind of close-minded dogmatism. I certainly commend you again for not going that route!
I agree also that the gift box wrapping is irresistable. I honestly feel it would be a terrible shame to never be able to examine the contents! |
|
|
|
le Penseur
Banned
USA
142 Posts |
 Posted - 02/28/2011 : 13:14:45 [Permalink]
|
BNGBCK writes Le Penseur is not claiming that he possesses supernatural powers. Logistically, how would you suggest that he acquire and transport an alien corpse to a place where you or anyone else could examine it?
He is claiming that he and his family have had personal experience and interaction with aliens. It is indeed an extraordinary claim, but no one yet here has suggested the exact, defined "evidence" that it would be possible for him to offer by, as he says, "typing on an Internet forum." |
Then BNGBUCK to Hawk.
I do not think that you are "mean spirited", nor am I; but please describe the exact nature of the evidence that would not be "blah, blah, blah", but would either satisfy you or at least sway you closer to thinking that LP's claims were possible? Evidence that LP could actually obtain and place in a location where you could physically examine it?
If that evidence is a dead or alive alien, is it reasonable to believe that LP somehow has the ability to kill an alien in order to provide a dead body, or perhaps incapacitate and capture a live alien and bring it to you or me? I ask you, as I have others, to describe evidence that it is actually possible for LP to provide, other than words, or "blah, blah, blah", as you describe them. |
Thank you BNGBUCK, I've been asking that for some time. I got no answer either.
BNGBUCK, you seem to be quite a friend, I must tell you I appreciate that, and I'm sure we can continue to communicate if you like.
Kil, thank you as well. I certainly didn't intend to seem petulent, I realize this club is generally of a mindset quite in opposition to the sort of things I've said. As a result, the posters here steer the conversation to defend their deeply-held position (belief system?).
|
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2011 : 13:16:01 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by bngbuck
Moakley.....
| An alien corpse would be a very good start. Far superior to a personal testimony of alien abduction. |
Le Penseur is not claiming that he possesses supernatural powers. Logistically, how would you suggest that he acquire and transport an alien corpse to a place where you or anyone else could examine it?
He is claiming that he and his family have had personal experience and interaction with aliens. It is indeed an extraordinary claim, but no one yet here has suggested the exact, defined "evidence" that it would be possible for him to offer by, as he says, "typing on an Internet forum."
I think his point is well taken that the proper role of a proper skeptic on a skeptics forum would be to listen carefully to his descriptions and definitions of alien life, to which he has been extensively exposed, and then ask questions designed to clarify whether or not such descriptions are closer to fantasy or fact. Repeated requests for presentation of alive or dead aliens for actual physical viewing and examination are unrealistic given that Le Penseur presents himself as an ordinary human being that has had some extraordinary experiences.
If these postings of Le Penseur were coming instead from a high-ranking officer of the US Air Force, claiming that Roswell indeed was a true story and small grey beings were in Air Force custody, then I would think it would be appropriate for anyone here to demand "put up or shut up", as the US Air Force would presumeably have the actual ability to demonstrate the physical evidence of aliens to the public at large. Such a scenario is obviously ridiculous and is not about to happen; or it would have long ago.
But, think about it. What, precisely described, evidence would it be possible for a person like Le Penseur who claims abduction and interaction with aliens - to actually provide to folks here on the SFN forums, or for that matter, to any one else? All that we exchange and deal with on these Forums are words. Words, in and of themselves, cannot constitute the evidence that many here are asking for.
What we (SFN members) want is real, tangible, touchable objects (dead or alive aliens) to examine and decide as to their authenticity. How would it be possible for any individual like Le Penseur to provide such evidence to you, to me, to the news media, to the public as a whole? When we ask for evidence, is it not reasonable to ask for evidence that actually would be possible for a claimant to deliver?
|
The man said he was able to move around the inside if their ships, and that the aliens didn't notice, and when they did notice the were upset. He also said that their reason for being upset was his potential interference and the threat to their lives.
Sounds like ample opportunity to grab an object from their ship, or to resist. Punch one, get its blood (or whatever) on your clothes, get its skin under your nails, bite off a piece of its face.... the dirty little suckers just abducted you and your family, caused you pain (which makes no sense, an advanced technology should have totally pain free probes, so they must be causing pain intentionally), you should be pretty well pissed off by these aliens.
Their technology and control, per le Penseur's own account, is far from perfect. Fighting back should be no problem. Forensic science could do the rest. Just get a gadget and/or some blood/tissue from them. That is a reasonable request if you go by le Penseur's details.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
le Penseur
Banned
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2011 : 13:28:43 [Permalink]
|
| Another double post, I'm sorry, my bad. |
|
|
|
bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2011 : 14:04:52 [Permalink]
|
Dude.....
| If you can't do something along those lines, then you are only going to be met with ridicule. No one really gives a crap about your story, we want evidence only. Your story is just some stupid shit you made up unless you can back it up with evidence, just to be clear here. |
Dude, please explicitly exclude me from your generalizations bolded above.. I am not currently looking for the kind of impossible evidence you ask for. I indeed do give a crap about his story and I strongly want to hear more of it.
Until you or anyone here comes up with a description of possible evidence that it would actually be possible for LP to produce and show, your protests are ludicrous! LP is not presenting himself as Superman! How in the hell could he produce a live alien and show him to you, or anybody else? They are said to control him with super natural powers, not vice versa!
A dead alien? For crissakes, Dude, you want LP to murder one of the fuckers and drop him off on your doorstep? These are represented as beings with enormous powers! You are simply being facetious when you ask for such evidence. Come up with something possible, man. And even if he did manage to off one of the abductors, you couldn't afford to take the time or money to go see it - or if he sent it to you in a box, you could not command the resources to obtain satisfactory pathology on the body.
Please tell me how wrong I am and why. I know all about the Alzheimers, and the senile degeneration and so forth, so please spare me the ritual excoriation!
And even if I were willing to pay all the expenses attendent to Proving The Thing In The Box Is An Alien, which I could easily do, I would require some significant persuasion to fly to the Hudson Valley to examine it. Despite some evidence to the contrary, I don't just throw money around like it was water! How would LP convince me, one who is stoutly defending him right now, to spend a few thou checking out his story?
Well, it wouldn't be easy, but it probably would happen if got to know the guy and there really was some way to produce any kind of actual evidence as to an alien abduction. Right now, I can't think of any and neither can you, or Dave or anyone here. So stop with the evidence carping. Let's find out all the details about who, what, and why these aliens are, and then begin to skeptically dissect those descriptions. The kind of evidence you want is neither practical or possible! |
|
|
|
alienist
Skeptic Friend
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2011 : 14:14:08 [Permalink]
|
To Bngbuck:
You are not able to evaluate the group psychology and dynamics because you are to caught up in your own relationship issues with the group.
I don't know about others, but I'm insulted that you think I would just follow what Kil and Dave say and not think for myself.
I apologize for jumping into the conversation and not addressing what the forum is about (alien abduction). Carry on. |
The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well! - Joe Ancis |
|
|
|
bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2011 : 14:18:04 [Permalink]
|
Dear Alienist.....
| What are you hoping for from this website? You are probably not going to convince anyone your story is real. I assume if you had evidence you wouldn't be wasting it on this forum. Have you presented your evidence to other people? What was their response? |
Alienist, would you please describe in detail the kind of evidence that refer to above? Evidence that LP actually would be able to procure and present to any one - you, me, the press or TV networks - actual physical evidence! He states that he and his family have been repeatedly abducted by aliens. They possess what appear to be super natural powers. It is very unlikely that, even if he wanted to, he could kill or capture one of these powerful beings. Given that, what is the exact description of the things that you would expect from him that would be acceptable evidence of his story of abduction?
|
|
|
|
bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2011 : 14:34:51 [Permalink]
|
Hawks.....
| So... why should anyone remain open to your claim that these were aliens any more than they should be open to the idea that you were hallucinating, dreaming, the victim of a hoax or simply making this stuff up as you go along? |
Hawks, I can only answer for myself. I am, as of now, fully open to all of the possibilities that you enumerate above. And many, many, more.
Until I can hear a great deal more of Le Penseur's narrative, I have no idea as to how to fully understand his story. He is modest, well-spoken, and not overly agressive. I don't really see any signs of mental deterioration or insanity in him. If he wishes to continue and the others here allow him to remain for a comfortable period relating more details of both his abduction experiences and of the aliens themselves; I am certain that a clearer picture will emerge as to whether this is fact or fiction. I really strongly prefer not to pre-judge at this point in our brief acquaintence with Le Penseur |
|
|
|
bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2011 : 15:00:08 [Permalink]
|
Dude.....
| Now that you have had your initiation schoolyard scuffle with the resident intellectual bully, David Weinblen |
| I regret the insecurity you betray by using the term "intellectual bullying" It is very difficult for one true intellectual to bully another. You perform very well under pressure, Dude, there is no need for intellectual penis envy. |
| Feeling a little insecure there? |
Probably, at some subconscious level that emotion exists. I certainly have engaged in my share of intellectual bullying both here and elsewhere. I find it very difficult to I-bully Dave, you are somewhat easier, mostly because of your anger management problems.
But none of that denies the fact that it is very difficult for one intellectual to bully another, if they are both up on their game. You are certainly no pushover, as really there are few remaining on the forum, at least as active posters. In the old days of a year or two ago, there were folks here that were ridiculously easy to shut up with just a sharp sentence or two. That is not true with the pretty excellent group of frequent posters that we have here now!
Yours is a is a valid question/statement that I possibly should be giving myself my own advice. I thank you for it. |
|
|
|
bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2011 : 15:07:38 [Permalink]
|
Dudeldedoo.....
| But I'm asking for a reality check because you and buckaroo are egging this guy on, and he seems like he needs therapy not encouragement. |
Has SFN suddenly become a provider of mental health therapy? I was under the impression that most of you guys were skeptics not therapists.
Are you and Dave looking forward to Easter or something? What with all the eggs. Or was that sheer coincidence? |
|
|
|
alienist
Skeptic Friend
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2011 : 15:18:35 [Permalink]
|
Dear Bngbuck
Alienist, would you please describe in detail the kind of evidence that refer to above? Evidence that LP actually would be able to procure and present to any one - you, me, the press or TV networks - actual physical evidence! He states that he and his family have been repeatedly abducted by aliens. They possess what appear to be super natural powers. It is very unlikely that, even if he wanted to, he could kill or capture one of these powerful beings. Given that, what is the exact description of the things that you would expect from him that would be acceptable evidence of his story of abduction?
If he has been abducted, it is very unlikely le penseur can produce evidence. So I decided to step out of the debate. I am not interested in this kind of story, but don't want to stop him from telling his story. I am still curious about le penseur's motivation to post on this site. It seems that this kind of site would be the least likely to believe this kind of story. If he does have evidence, then why bother trying to convince a bunch of skeptics. Why not talk about this story on other sites that would believe this kind of story.
The other thought I had is that le penseur is playing with us by getting skeptics to believe his story. He can say he was able to come up with such a good story that skeptics believed it. However, that is speculation on my part. |
The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well! - Joe Ancis |
|
|
|
le Penseur
Banned
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2011 : 16:10:34 [Permalink]
|
The man said he was able to move around the inside if their ships, and that the aliens didn't notice, and when they did notice the were upset. He also said that their reason for being upset was his potential interference and the threat to their lives.
"Sounds like ample opportunity to grab an object from their ship", or to resist. Punch one, get its blood (or whatever) on your clothes, get its skin under your nails, bite off a piece of its face.... the dirty little suckers just abducted you and your family, caused you pain (which makes no sense, an advanced technology should have totally pain free probes, so they must be causing pain intentionally), you should be pretty well pissed off by these aliens.
Their technology and control, per le Penseur's own account, is far from perfect. Fighting back should be no problem. Forensic science could do the rest. Just get a gadget and/or some blood/tissue from them. That is a reasonable request if you go by le Penseur's details.
|
Okay, so this is a joke, right? You've got an odd sense of humor, Dude, but I'm starting to appreciate it. Lol. If you were being serious, I have to assume you are probably in high-school. No offense meant by that.
But, let's why your suggestion is an insane idea.
1. This was not a Will Smith summer blockbuster movie.
2. Nor was it a videogame on playstation 3.
3. "Sounds like ample opportunity to grab an object from their ship,"
I have heard this one a lot, over the years. Why didn't I just grab something? "Just grab an ashtray," they'd say, seriously.
"An ashtray?" I'd repeat.
"You know, whatever.." No, I don't. Like what? Assuming the aliens don't smoke Parliaments, at least on the ships, what trinkets do they leave laying around? A shelf of curios? A glass menagerie? A set of keys, a harmonica?
The aliens don't leave things lying around for us to grab. I think they thought that one through pretty early on. Much like being put into a cop car and transported to a police station, not much there for someone to swipe from the cop car.
4."Punch one, get its blood (or whatever) on your clothes, get its skin under your nails, bite off a piece of its face...."
Jesus, kid, you've seen too many zombie movies. The Tarantino generation, where violence is always cool and usually appropriate.
How smart would launching a violent attack be? Let's see, I was ten years old, the alien that was in charge was a good seven feet tall. The other aliens wore protective gear over most of their bodies. The only seconds they were distracted from me was while they were engaged in piloting the vessel, how smart to attack someone piloting the vehicle you're both on? Yeah, "Ten year-old boy versus the aliens" sounds like a reasonable plan. If I were a Jedi.
And why this violent attack again? To get some blood on my clothes so that I can send it away somewhere to be analyzed as alien? Just so I can prove it to people in chatrooms of denial decades later? Yeah, that was my motivation during the abduction. And send that blood sample where, again? I already established there were no resources available to me then.
And my little fists are going to draw blood from these guys? good luck, not going to happy, they are pretty solid. Nothing delicate about them.
Would it be wise to try and attack, say, police arresting you? Even apart from the realization that you couldn't win? Of course its a bad idea, and there could be awful repercussions. My goal was always to get back home, and not to make matters dangerous.
Remember, I stated earlier, once the lead alien had contact with me, his hand upon my head, I was calm, and my fear was gone. But I was still conscious and alert, almost a sense of drunken euphoria, countering fear and resistance. That's the state I was in when I got up out of my seat and they momentarily lost track of me. I only wanted to see the view from such heights. I'm certain if my goal was 'attack', they'd have been aware of me even sooner, and froze me in place.
Plus, these beings are authority figures if ever there were ones, and kids don't attack authority figures, be they teachers, clergy, parents, or aliens.
On top of it all, they were in many ways pretty nice, they were polite, and with subsequent encounters, quite friendly. Especially for my youngest brother, they liked him a lot and spent a lot more time working with him, developing certain skills, and even just establishing what resembled a friendship.
| Fighting back should be no problem. Forensic science could do the rest. Just get a gadget and/or some blood/tissue from them. |
Fighting back is impossible. the read your mind instantly and paralyze you with their thoughts. Again what forensic scientist am I sending this to, in 1974? And I found out about their interest in analyzing alien blood where? And no "gadgets" laying around.
But you would have been the ten-year old Mulder, right? Or is it Scully? I hated that show. |
|
|
|
bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2011 : 16:36:42 [Permalink]
|
alienist.....
| You are not able to evaluate the group psychology and dynamics because you are to caught up in your own relationship issues with the group. |
I appreciate your analysis of my inability to properly perceive the group dynamic. Is this a professional or an armchair opinion? If you are a degreed or practicing clinical psychologist and you would like to pursue this diagnosis/opinion of yours, I will be happy to oblige. Just open a thread upon the subject from which you wish to elicit commentary. I am not a practicing clinical psychologist, but I am degreed in the discipline, and I welcome your questions or observations.
I understand that you are dropping out of this thread, so if you don't want to start a new topic, but still want to discuss your observations you can reach me at bngbuck@roadrunner.com
The management here kind of discourages this type of off-topic posting inside an existing thread. |
|
|
|
bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2011 : 16:42:24 [Permalink]
|
Big Papa Smurf.....
| So why choose a skeptic forum? Why here of all places if you have no interest in trying to make us believe you? |
I don't think LP really cares if we believe him. He has presented an extraordinary claim that, by Sagan's dictum (or Marcello Truzzi or Pierre -Simon LaPlace, whomever you like) requires extraordinary evidence to substantiate. However, by the very nature of the claim, appropriate evidence is not possible for LP to deliver. Therefore:
1. He should be ignored or,
2. He should be declared a troll and banned, or,
3. We should listen, ask questions, and apply skepticism as required to his statements of the nature and physical/mental aspects of the Aliens as he describes them.
Hopefully, we should attempt to ask such questions courteously and in sincerity. without malice aforethought.
If all or most of the claims that he makes about the nature, origin, purposes etc. of the aliens can be fairly dismissed by the application of logic and reasoning, then eventually it will be reasonable to declare him delusional in some manner.
I certainly don't make the rules around here, however, as I understand it, Kil and Dave do. Both of these gentlemen have asked LP to continue his narrative. I heartily agree, as I am receiving valuable input from this person germane to the subject matter of a manuscript I am currently writing.. So I sincerely hope he chooses to ignore the insults and proceed with detailed information as to what the aliens with whom he has had experience actually are.
You are, of course, entitled to your own view but I would hope that you would be patient enough to allow LP to more fully explicate the nature of alien life forms as he has experienced it.
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
ETs are here, despite guesses to the contrary
