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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 04/16/2011 : 21:30:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Hey Boss, I quit. Remember? |
Except for the part where you didn't.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2011 : 02:22:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Hawks.....
Your opinion is as good as mine.
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Not when they are riddled in logical fallacies, and otherwise lack in critical thinking. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2011 : 08:05:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Dude.....
So answer the questions, stop crying, don't bitch, wipe those tears away, get back to something at least tangential to the topic.
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Hey Boss, I quit. Remember?| I will be happy to do all of that and more, provided that we hear from you here, as the initiator of this thread, that my response to your request is not to be considered by you to be further "Highjacking". Otherwise, I don't care to add anything more to this thread. |
"Tangential" doesn't speak to "highjacking"
Sorry about OFFC's gut punch, try to get over it, Xanax, maybe?
Hey, I like your advice on one-liners.
Maybe you could show me?
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If you aren't going to participate then I'm done talking to you in this thread. If you ever get around to answering those questions I'll come back to them too. Feel free to keep on as you are though, I'm sure there are plenty of people here who will throw down with you if you keep being a dick.
Your unwillingness to participate just informs me that the various criticisms of you may be accurate. Which is sad, really. I'd hoped you were just being a dick because you were feeling mistreated, not because those criticisms were uncomfortably accurate. Contrary to what asshat OFFC has to say, I dont really care that the thread is off the rails a bit, I was thinking that you might eventually get around to telling me your actual viewpoint on critical thinking.
Guess I was wrong. Oh well.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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alienist
Skeptic Friend
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2011 : 08:30:33 [Permalink]
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| Ah, Bngbuck, nice try at distraction to avoid Dude's questions. I have to assume you don't have an answer to his questions |
The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well! - Joe Ancis |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2011 : 11:15:50 [Permalink]
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What's with all the Christ crap, OFFC? I mean, have you been jumping puppies through hoops here since 2003 at the average rate of four or five posts a month? Or do you get an occasional epiphany focused on the epicentric position of SFN in the mind of God and then drop in to close another conversion? You're an odder duck than I am, Gunga Din!
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I simply find that this particular rate of posting is sufficient to make my voice heard. Sometimes I allow indulgences such as this post. I could probably stand to cut the rate in half.
OFFC- well, you are probably already aware of my low opinion of you. No real need for me to clarify it further, is there?
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Well there is the old saying "I don't care what you think unless it is about me". |
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podcat
Skeptic Friend
435 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2011 : 12:06:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Dude.....
So answer the questions, stop crying, don't bitch, wipe those tears away, get back to something at least tangential to the topic.
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Hey Boss, I quit. Remember?
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Then leave. |
“In a modern...society, everybody has the absolute right to believe whatever they damn well please, but they don't have the same right to be taken seriously”.
-Barry Williams, co-founder, Australian Skeptics |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2011 : 13:37:30 [Permalink]
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Dude
| I don't really care that the thread is off the rails a bit, |
OK. I will take that rather oblique, slightly tangential comment as stating that further exploration of the "alien in a box" thought experiment is not thread highjacking.
You have pled three times. And I cannot fail to respond to the needlepoint of Alienist on the fabric of this thread who had the cheek to suggest I was not prepared to provide an alternative to Dude's scenario. The very idea! I am shocked! Shocked, I say!
Dude asked.....Why don't you go ahead and tell us a few things now;
A. What would you consider convincing evidence for ET visitation?
B. What would you do in the scenario you presented?
C. And what are the thought processes that lead you to the answers you have for those questions? |
Question A is answered en toto by the full completion of all the events described in the lengthy response to Question B. My thinking, per C, is in bold parentheses.
So, beginning with the box and note delivered to my front porch on a hot weekday in July, I.....
1. ...find the box, read the note, slide the box into the house. Shut the door. (It's no business of the neighbors)
2. Pry up the cover, look in the box. (Obvious curiosity)
3. Poke the thing with a stick, feel it (with gloves on), detect no smell. (Is it "real" or plastic? Toxic?)
4. Go to 7/11, get lots of bags of ice, go back and put ice bags all over and around thing in box. (Don't want it start to spoil)
5. Measure the box. Go to Sears. Buy a chest freezer big enough to hold the box. Bring it home, put it in garage, plug it in on high. Lock it. (Long term preservation and concealment)
6. Wait until my daughter comes home from class. Tell her the story. The two of us carry the box to the freezer and put it in. (I can't handle it by myself to achieve the above goals)
7. Wait till my wife comes home. Tell her the story, The three of us discuss. Decide to call Alan, my life-long friend and attorney in Denver.(I need legal and more advice from someone I can trust who is also pretty smart. Alan has criminal and civil experience. My wife and daughter are pretty smart.)
8. Call Alan. No details over the phone. Ask him to come to us. Send him airline e-ticket for round trip. Get him a room at local motel.
(Alan trusts me. He will come. I will pay)
9. Alan arrives. Tell him the story. Show him the thing. He pokes and feels it. He says he thinks it's organic, animal matter, fake. But only way to be sure is conventional autopsy or dissection.(He thinks it's somehow a weird sculpting of animal parts, but is not sure) I agree.
10 He suggests we hire some experts. He arranges for an anthropologist, and a zoologist to examine but not dissect the thing. He makes them sign non-disclosure agreements. They write and sign reports. Both state they can not determine the nature of the thing without dissection. I pay them expert witness fees.(We need authentication to proceed further)
11. He sends a formal request to James Randi to examine the thing and determine it's true nature. Includes extensive pictures and description and the witness reports. Tells Randi we are not
applying for the million dollar award. We want to hire his expert opinion and will pay him to examine and, hopefully, define it. (Randi is most famous "fake" authority in world. We need authentication)
12. Randi agrees, provided we bring the thing to him. We buy a portable 110volt generator, install it in the truck, load the box and drive to Florida; freezer running.(What Randi wants, Randi gets)
13. Per pre agreement, Randi and associates receive the box at JREF, thaw the thing, and arrange for liscensed forensic pathologists to dissect it under Randi's direction. My cost. Maximum preservation of the corpus is emphasized.(No doubt it must be dissected. Randi has access to facilities that I don't have. This is an assumption)
14. The thing is autopsied. A physiological organ system analogous to that of a human being is revealed. Many anatomical details differ. Tissue is eukaryotic in form but varies in detail from any known animal tissue. It does not match any known animal, specifically primate, species.(Best guess so far has been prosimian, monkey, or ape)
15. Randi provides a statement confirming that JREF staff and he personally have examined, and supervised a forensic autopsy of, the animal thing and cannot identify it other than as similar to a primate with many anatomical differences. It is clearly not man-made. The brain and nervous system were only cursorily examined and minimal tissue damage was inflicted.(We needed Randi's imprimatur that it was not a fake, in order to go further. We wanted to preserve as much as possible and still get a firm "fake" or "not fake")
16. The licensed pathologists will not certify the thing as a human being, only as an unidentified form of animal. So there is no basis for criminal investigation of the "death", other than possible animal abuse is possible. No violence to the "body" was discovered, no poison, cause of "death" (if it ever was "alive") is not known.(We now have a certified UAO - Unidentified Animal Object) What to do, now?
17. Possession is returned to me. I pay his hefty fee. Alan and I consult with Randi as to his views as to the disposition of the "animal" He suggests maximum public exposure. He would like to display it at TAM and ask for hypotheses. We agree, and hire him as a consultant on a program of publicizing the UAO.(Randi has solid chops in the world of fakes, phonies, and the skeptical enquiry of such matters. His certification of it as not identified helps to dispel "fake" labelling and promotes the possible commercialization of the UAO)
18. Randi sees the analysis of the UAO as a perfect demonstration of "Why NOT to jump to conclusions" (So far, the thing in the crate has not provided one iota of information about UFO's, UAP, extraterrestrrial life, or the existence/non-existence of "aliens". But it is a new example of probably previously unknown terrestrial biology and it literally cries for additional examination.)
19. Alan draws up legal documents confirming my ownership of the now "undefined animal remains" based upon the unqualified gift note from Le Penseur. We make a court filing in Idaho. We form a LLC.(We are going to try and make a profit from the gift. We want limited liability)
20. We hire a national investigagtion firm to attempt to find Le Penseur. We hire a publicity and media agent to create a media exposure plan. I pledge securities and establish a bank LOC to fund our new exploitation company.(This process will require start-up capital. I've spent some already. We need professional advice to get maximum media attention. We want to know how LP got it originally.)
21. We decide to promote commercialization of the thing through one major long term news cycle (30 to 60 days). Then give it to the most promising "real science" establishment that we can find that might be interested in it. We are open to national enquiry.(Things like this don't keep the public's attention very long. After satisfying my self-obligation, I feel that anything else that can be learned from the dissected remains belongs to those who work in biological research.)
22. I probably derive a fair portion of momentary fame and fortune from the execise. All blows over in a year or so. The UAO goes down in biological history as just that - an unidentified biological specimen.(My curiosity is exceeded only by my avarice. The donation to a laboratory or Institute is secondary to desiring to make a buck off of it.)
I do not end up with evidence of extraterrestrial visitation. However, it is possible that extraordinary discoveries may result from further analysis of the UAO. I hope so.
I do end up with higher curiosity than ever as to where it came from.
Maybe the publicity will smoke out Le Penseur and I can ask him more questions.
Critical thinking? - Damned if I know!
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2011 : 14:50:09 [Permalink]
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Ok.
I happen to think that a simple microscopic examination of tissue would result in a definitive answer to the question of terestrial origin or not.
Also, any civilization capable of interstellar or interdimensional travel is likely to have tinkered with their biology. That should be detectable as well with relatively unsophisticated analysis.
Also, I'm not sure involving Randi would be of any benefit. He can sort bullshit, but what skill does he have in analyzing biological specimens?
But here is my question, if you would take those steps, which do not convey to me any unecessary credulity, why does your apparent (and stated) position on UAP (and gravity fairies) involve what seems to be an excessive amount of credulity?
I don't understand how you can get to both of those places at the same time. Maybe you have sacrificed precision in language in favor of obnoxious alliteration and an overwhelming desire to trade trade insults, and it has hampered your ability to effectively communicate?
Your potential actions in your scenario are close enough to mine to be almost identicle, but your thinking on UAP is drastically different. (you don't think they are ETs, but you think they could be ETs) Either we aren't communicating well or there is some disconnect.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2011 : 23:13:32 [Permalink]
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Dude....
| I happen to think that a simple microscopic examination of tissue would result in a definitive answer to the question of terestrial origin or not. |
Not being even the ghost of a biologist, I could not hazard a guess. It strikes me tho' that a "simple microscopic examination" might indeed reveal something highly unusual re tissue structure, but as to how that would be necessarily a definition of "extraterrestrial origin", does indeed escape me. Primarily due to the lack of any tissue sample of extraterrestrial origin to which to compare! Just a lay opinion, however.| That should be detectable as well with relatively unsophisticated analysis. |
So gene tinkering, et al, is easily determined by simple microscopy? And that on tissue never before seen by mortal man? Again, I am no part of biologist, but I never would have guessed that it was that easy!| I'm not sure involving Randi would be of any benefit. He can sort bullshit, but what skill does he have in analyzing biological specimens? |
Read it again, Dude. Randi's role is not to do biological analysis, he hires forensic pathologists to do that. His position is to certify "not a hollywood fake movie prop" as to the biological authenticity of the UAO. His fame lends credence to the genuine mystique of the UAO and allows it to be legitimately marketed as a mystery! If Randi is not going to call it a fake, who will?| why does your apparent (and stated) position on UAP (and gravity fairies) involve what seems to be an excessive amount of credulity? |
The answer may lie in your use of the words "apparent", "excessive" and "seems". My position seems apparent and excessive to you. It would appear vague, insufficient and unsupportive to a card-carrying member of MUFON! There is a spectrum of conviction on any opinion, Dude; I am merely in the middle of this one instead of at one end or the other. And I lack your experience with gravity fairies.| I don't understand how you can get to both of those places at the same time. |
That's because the credulity to which you refer is subjective in your personal reference system. It cannot possibly be objective and universal to all reference systems.| Maybe you have sacrificed precision in language in favor of obnoxious alliteration and an overwhelming desire to trade trade insults, and it has hampered your ability to effectively communicate? |
Well, maybe so, but seeing no reason to incite trading trade insults (or encourage proofreading posts), I'll not return shots too cheap to take seriously. I am not concerned with my ability to communicate.| Your potential actions in your scenario are close enough to mine to be almost identicle, but your thinking on UAP is drastically different. |
Wrong. Your primary and first concern was to involve the police, not the possible commercial value of the gift. You had total confidence in your personal ability to positively identify the nature of alien tissue, I feel it might be a bit more difficult, you saw the possible commercial value of the UAO as limited to an auction of a biological specimen, I saw a large potential popular interest if professionally marketed. Not identical by a long shot!| (you don't think they are ETs, but you think they could be ETs) |
And you know that they are not ET's and you also know that they could not be ET's ?
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2011 : 13:38:49 [Permalink]
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bng said:
| Not being even the ghost of a biologist, I could not hazard a guess. It strikes me tho' that a "simple microscopic examination" might indeed reveal something highly unusual re tissue structure, but as to how that would be necessarily a definition of "extraterrestrial origin", does indeed escape me. Primarily due to the lack of any tissue sample of extraterrestrial origin to which to compare! Just a lay opinion, however. |
You could determine if it was or was not a eukaryote, archae or a prokaryote with a microscope. If it isn't one of those three things, then you could reasonably speculate on a potential non terrestrial origin. Each of our kingdoms has a set of distinguishing features, with some variation, that sets them apart on the cellular level, discernible with a simple light microscope.
| So gene tinkering, et al, is easily determined by simple microscopy? And that on tissue never before seen by mortal man? Again, I am no part of biologist, but I never would have guessed that it was that easy! |
In our own civilization just contemplate how ubiquitous our own tinkering is. Even if you don't have a wild type reference specimen you can clearly identify our tinkering with a simple xray. Bone remodeling from a simple setting and external casting is detectable forever. With other relatively unsophisticated means, like electron microscopes, it is not unreasonable to say that the tinkering of an advanced civilization might be apparent at the cellular level. The test to detect the presence of DNA requires a detergent, a centrifuge, and a UV light spectrophotometer. Unsophisticated. If the thing even used DNA then the analysis of that DNA via PCR is only slightly more complex than turning on your computer. Undergrad level lab work. So.
I'd suggest also that if you actually want to continue this then you should get the fucking corncob out of your ass, stop misrepresenting what I say, and in general stop being a fucking asshole. Strawmen are for intellectual halfwits who lack the ability to present a real argument.
| That's because the credulity to which you refer is subjective in your personal reference system. It cannot possibly be objective and universal to all reference systems. |
So now you are willing to admit that something may indeed be impossible? Interesting change of philosophy there.
| I am not concerned with my ability to communicate. |
You should be, because you are failing at it here.
| Wrong. Your primary and first concern was to involve the police, not the possible commercial value of the gift. You had total confidence in your personal ability to positively identify the nature of alien tissue, I feel it might be a bit more difficult, you saw the possible commercial value of the UAO as limited to an auction of a biological specimen, I saw a large potential popular interest if professionally marketed. Not identical by a long shot! |
The two sets of actions are identical in every meaningful way. Maybe you turn left where I turn right, but the final product and the stops along the way are exactly the same. Protect yourself, identify, and try to make some money.
But you are in an old fucker mood, cranky, irritated, constipated, whatever.... I'll try to limit my cheap shots on the condition that you try and do the same. We aren't going to go anywhere with this if you keep trying to run it off the rails with nonsense.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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alienist
Skeptic Friend
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2011 : 17:45:08 [Permalink]
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This topic has gone off track a bit. Critical thinking is about how you think not about what you do. So looking at this example: Le Penseur drops something at my house. I would be asking the following:
1. Why is Le Penseur dropping something at my house? the best solution is to ask him directly
2. What is it?
3. Is it organic or non-organic
4. Is it alive or dead?
5. What is it composed of
to determine this we have several tools: autopsy, microscopy, DNA analysis (assuming it has DNA
6. Where did it come from?
our planet or is it extra-terrestial
I would also ask LP where he found it and if he found anything else along with it
7. How did it get here if it is extra-terrestial
Are there any clues around where it was found?
8. HOw long has it been at the place from which it was found
Critical thinking to me means approaching a problem with as many questions and objectivity as I can.
After I figure out what it is (assuming I have all the resources and/or people I need), I would then ask do any of my tools have limitations. Is there a chance I have a false positive or false negative result.
Then I would give this object to someone else with the same resources and see if that person comes up with the same result. Hopefully, that person would not have the same biases as me.
I know I have ignored the question of whether to keep this object a secret or not, who can I trust, etc. those are harder questions in a way because you have to think about human reactions and behavior.
Anyway, those are my thoughts |
The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well! - Joe Ancis |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2011 : 09:22:05 [Permalink]
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Alienist.....
| 1.the best solution is to ask him directly |
Do you know how to reach him? If so, please tell me!
That is the only point of the entire exercise. Can you tell by looking at it?| 3. Is it organic or non-organic |
How do you find out? Specifically. you, not just anyone.If it's inorganic, it's likely dead. If organic, how specifically determine alive or dead?5. What is it composed of
to determine this we have several tools: autopsy, microscopy, DNA analysis (assuming it has DNA |
Yeah. How do you specifically bring these tools into play?| 6. Where did it come from? |
How, specifically, do you find out?
I would also ask LP where he found it and if he found anything else along with it |
How would you find LP to ask these questions?7. How did it get here if it is extra-terrestial
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How do you investigate this? It was delivered to you by Le Penseur who has gone with no trace of where.| 8. How long has it been at the place from which it was found |
It has been at your doorstep between a few minutes and two hours, the time you have been away from your house. Before that...how find out? | After I figure out what it is (assuming I have all the resources and/or people I need), I would then ask do any of my tools have limitations |
Assume you have only the tools and resources that you actually have at your disposal right now in actual time. Then re-think what you would do upon finding the box at your doorstep after having been away for about two hours.| Then I would give this object to someone else with the same resources and see if that person comes up with the same result. |
Assuming you have determined it is not a plastic fake, why not give it to an entity with vastly greater resources, such as the US Government? |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2011 : 09:31:51 [Permalink]
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Dude.....
in general stop being a fucking asshole. Strawmen are for intellectual halfwits who lack the ability to present a real argument.
You should be, because you are failing at it here.
you are in an old fucker mood, cranky, irritated, constipated, whatever
I'll try to limit my cheap shots
We aren't going to go anywhere with this if you keep trying to run it off the rails with nonsense. |
Dude, you present an intellectually compelling argument that is very difficult for me to resist.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2011 : 11:56:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Dude.....
in general stop being a fucking asshole. Strawmen are for intellectual halfwits who lack the ability to present a real argument.
You should be, because you are failing at it here.
you are in an old fucker mood, cranky, irritated, constipated, whatever
I'll try to limit my cheap shots
We aren't going to go anywhere with this if you keep trying to run it off the rails with nonsense. |
Dude, you present an intellectually compelling argument that is very difficult for me to resist.
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This illustrates your problems here I think. You can't not respond to provocation, and when provoked the only thing you respond to is the provocation.
Your refusal to respond to the topic amounts to an admission of error.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2011 : 13:19:49 [Permalink]
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This has got to be the most godawful boring thread. The frickin' nitpicking over the most inane inconsequential points.
BNGBUCK, I'm sorry but I'm going to call you out. It's been 99% you who's driven this topic off the rails. I gave the the bene of the doubt, but for-fuck-sake, stop with the inane quibbling. Call me biased, but i came into this wondering why everybody was shitting all over you. Now, I no longer wonder why. Sorry to break it to you.
And DUDE, your one-liners and insults always have me snorting coffee. Keep up the good work. |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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Critical thinking
