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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
 Posted - 05/17/2011 : 10:40:22
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Interesting ideas on the Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies website about how to promote a more egalitarian society, and discussion in the comments going on here: http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/4750
Throwing it out there to see how people in SFN feel about egalitarianism as well as the interested proposals mentioned. At first glance, I find the idea of perishable money fantastic. It seems like such a simple solution to extreme disparity of wealth. Can anyone think of some good criticisms of the idea?
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2011 : 17:21:34 [Permalink]
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marfknox.....
| I find the idea of perishable money fantastic. It seems like such a simple solution to extreme disparity of wealth. Can anyone think of some good criticisms of the idea? |
You can't criticize the sun rising. Fiat currency begins depreciating the minute it is printed.
How would the system deal with those who quickly used a large percentage of their perishing money to purchase commodities that appreciated - such as stable foodstuffs in a drought period, or oil in an energy demand era, or precious metals in an inflationary economy -- and then held such assets until prices peaked; sold, and then quickly reinvested both capital and profit in real estate, or the S&P 400, or whatever tide was rising the boat at that time?
Point being to invest all paper money possible in anything that was appreciating, rather than letting it sit unused and shrinking - which it constantly does and always has.
For that matter, a .99 fine 1oz silver dollar would buy you a fresh, new $5.00 bill in 2001. Today, ten years, later it will trade for about $35.00 in U.S. paper money. That's 600% in ten years! And you didn't need to do anything with it for those ten years except keep it in your pocket. So does fiat currency self-destruct? About as quickly as butter in the sun!
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2011 : 20:56:40 [Permalink]
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Perishable money discourages thrift and living within your means.
When I first saw the term, I immediately thought of the US Civil War where the South's money was backed by cotton. And the rampant inflation based on scarcity.
However, perishible money as described by the IEEE is a bit more sinister. You get money. It loses value over time, eventually becoming worthless (a nightmare in the exchange rate for stores who recieve money as they will have to depreciate the money further to get the correct amount for a good or service and run the risk that the money will expire while in their hands). Saving money can only be done through government run institutions. The quart mason jar buried in the back is now useless. And printing bills with expiration dates becomes an incredibly complex and expensive venture. Want to save up for a major purchase? Be prepared to pay out the ass or borrow scads of cash. Bad credit, yer just ass out, buddy. People who don't carry cash would have to know about how old their money is in the bank. You hurt the little guy most because the businesses will take steps to ensure that they get a fair trade for the good or service. In some cases, starving people get turned away because their money (whom a disreputable business paid them for their labor with) has expired. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2011 : 21:10:13 [Permalink]
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| This is why I love you guys. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2011 : 12:00:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Interesting ideas on the Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies website about how to promote a more egalitarian society, and discussion in the comments going on here: http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/4750
Throwing it out there to see how people in SFN feel about egalitarianism as well as the interested proposals mentioned. At first glance, I find the idea of perishable money fantastic. It seems like such a simple solution to extreme disparity of wealth. Can anyone think of some good criticisms of the idea?
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I think egalitarianism sounds like a lovely idea on the surface. I do not think it is really attainable. It would require all people to put forth equal effort.
My own recent examination of Denmark observed that the little Nordic nation was simultaneously ranked #1 in “Egalitarianism” on the GINI Index and #1 in “Happiness” by Forbes. My conclusion from this is that:
SAME SOCIAL STATUS + SHARING = SMILES
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I often wonder if Denmark's success is due in part to it's small size. Is it even possible to replicate it here in the U.S. seeing as we have such a diverse population?
James Hughes (author of Citizen Cyborg: Why Democratic Societies Must Respond to the Redesigned Human of the Future) believes democratization aided by technology is the best medicine to cure inequality. He proposes [all quotes are his] that we provide “equal access to education” by developing the “visionary, handheld AI tutor that Neal Stephenson imagined in The Diamond Age that maps the child’s developmental needs, and leads them through a personalized dialogue to knowledge and critical thinking, drawing on the best pedagogies.”
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I love the equal access to education idea. I do happen to think that it is possible.(i'm not concentrating on the technology he is proposing, seems a little dreamy to me). The problem is that even though you can have all the tools avaiable to people are they actually going to use them?
Alex Lightman (author of Brave New Unwired World: the Digital Big Bang and the Infinite Internet) does not regard today’s economic disparity as the root cause of suffering. Instead, he asserts, “the fundamental inequalities are intelligence, imagination, ambition, and action. Someone with 10% more of all four than his chiral twin could have four orders of magnitude more wealth over a lifetime.”
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While I do not think that Mr. Lightman's proposals following this paragraph really mean anything I really do like how he worded this. It fits perfectly into my worldview and I may use similar wording in the future.
David Pearce (author of The Hedonistic Imperative) proffered advice that mirrored his devotion to the abolition of mental suffering. Like Lightman, he does not regard equity in wealth and class as the ultimate goal.
“Happiness based on social status is a so-called ‘positional good’,” he said. “No amount of material wealth can create more of it [happiness].
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I agree with this sentiment.
Pearce believes his proposal is “technically feasible right now. For example, benign genes for our children via preimplantation genetic diagnosis could potentially enrich everyone’s quality of life—and allow all humans to be born ‘winners’.” He also suggested “BioHappiness Education” as a policy measure for egalitarian bliss, and he praised genetic research on 5-HTTLPR (seratonin transporter) and the COMT Val158Met genotype.
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Holy balls. His answer is to genetically engineer people!
Giulio Prisco (author of Engineering Transcendence) was initially adverse to my query, replying, “I don’t want an egalitarian planet where everyone is the same as everyone else because this could only be achieved by suppressing personal autonomy, free-thinking and diversity, and would result in an extremely boring planet. But I do want a MORE egalitarian planet…”
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I agree totally but his "perishable money" idea that follows is just plain bad for all of the reasons that bng and Val stated.
According to Treder, each person’s financial income should not be regarded as a personal possession, but as a provisionally assigned piece of the total pie—and quite probably an unfair piece at that, either too much or too little.
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Bullshit. It's mine, I earned it. If you try to take it I will make you bleed. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2011 : 12:22:37 [Permalink]
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I notice the one thing that all of these ideas have in common is that they would require someone or some group with absolute authority to accomplish.
Exactly who would be worthy of this authority? |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2011 : 07:14:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
I notice the one thing that all of these ideas have in common is that they would require someone or some group with absolute authority to accomplish.
Exactly who would be worthy of this authority?
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You would have to have some near omniscient, completely emotionless and immune to corruption, impartial observer to run a system like that. So, that rules out all humans.
Or you would need all humanity to suddenly develop telepathic powers, join together in a hive mind where lies can't be told, and everyone agree to the plan. Pretty sure that would never happen. (the agreeing part I mean. I place spontaneous mass telepathy higher up on the chart of things likely to happen than all of humanity agreeing about anything)
Or something like that.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2011 : 10:24:28 [Permalink]
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| The only even remotely doable and not crazy solution I see on the list is the one offered by James Hughes. The first one. After that, well... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2011 : 19:42:51 [Permalink]
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I soooo want to get in on this conversation more. Unfortunately the last 52 hours I've had severe stomach flu and can barely stand looking at a screen for more than 5 minutes. I'll be back whenever I recover from this nightmare.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2011 : 20:08:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
I soooo want to get in on this conversation more. Unfortunately the last 52 hours I've had severe stomach flu and can barely stand looking at a screen for more than 5 minutes. I'll be back whenever I recover from this nightmare.
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Ooh Bummer. Feel better Marf.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Promoting egalitarianism from IEET
