|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 09/28/2011 : 13:04:53 [Permalink]
|
Bill,
I'll combine the three replies back into one.
Beaver dams are unnatural as they were built. Whether by man or beastie. There are debris dams that occur due to downed trees and sedimentation over years.
Tool use is also natural and unnatural. No matter the species. Including dolphins.
No, Mayonaise is not an instrument. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
 |
|
|
justintime
BANNED
382 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2011 : 14:12:55 [Permalink]
|
Bill Scott, how do you expect to succeed when you use secular reasoning to convince the gentiles. Try saying it is not the size of the ponds but their fear of heights that will determine candidates for "Rapture".
I find you alone in defending the faith. Mathew 10:16. “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves."
Get over your flat footedness. You are losing the advantage. |
| Edited by - justintime on 09/28/2011 15:24:25 |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9697 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2011 : 17:08:45 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by Valiant Dancer |
| (ponds are natural, that man had to make an effort to build one is not-natural) |
So if a beaver makes an effort to build a dam in an effort to create a pond then this is not-natural as well, correct?
|
I would consider the beaver-dam an artificial dam, since it was built to perform a function the beaver desire, which wouldn't have occurred unless the beaver made the decision to construct it. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
justintime
BANNED
382 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2011 : 06:46:57 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by Valiant Dancer |
| (ponds are natural, that man had to make an effort to build one is not-natural) |
So if a beaver makes an effort to build a dam in an effort to create a pond then this is not-natural as well, correct?
|
I would consider the beaver-dam an artificial dam, since it was built to perform a function the beaver desire, which wouldn't have occurred unless the beaver made the decision to construct it.
|
It is all in their genes, but extended to include all effects that a gene has on its environment. Why beavers build dams? Dawkins explains in his book "The extended phenotype." |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9697 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2011 : 07:01:15 [Permalink]
|
| Looks like an interesting book to read. Is it half as good as "The Greatest Show on Earth" then it will be a good read. Is building an atomic bomb also part of the extended phenotype according to Dawkins? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
justintime
BANNED
382 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2011 : 07:26:08 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Looks like an interesting book to read. Is it half as good as "The Greatest Show on Earth" then it will be a good read. Is building an atomic bomb also part of the extended phenotype according to Dawkins?
|
That is quite an equivocation.
The self destructive nature of man has been dealt in detail by philosophers, social scientist and some vague premise by Darwin's Evolution theory...the survival of the fittest...
But it borders on the insane paranoia of both god fearing and non god fearing nations. Mutual destruction is really the casual sentimentality behind such extremes. |
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2011 : 06:57:13 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by justintime
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Looks like an interesting book to read. Is it half as good as "The Greatest Show on Earth" then it will be a good read. Is building an atomic bomb also part of the extended phenotype according to Dawkins?
|
That is quite an equivocation.
The self destructive nature of man has been dealt in detail by philosophers, social scientist and some vague premise by Darwin's Evolution theory...the survival of the fittest...
But it borders on the insane paranoia of both god fearing and non god fearing nations. Mutual destruction is really the casual sentimentality behind such extremes.
|
Survival of the fittest was not Darwin.
It was Herbert Spencer. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9697 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2011 : 07:00:36 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by justintime
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Looks like an interesting book to read. Is it half as good as "The Greatest Show on Earth" then it will be a good read. Is building an atomic bomb also part of the extended phenotype according to Dawkins?
|
That is quite an equivocation. |
It's a sincere question. Since man arise in nature, and man's behaviour is a combination of genes (nature) and environment (again, nature), and plutonium can be found in nature, then by using the same logic as "a beaver dam is a part of the beaver's extended phenotype" then I can conclude that the atom bomb is a part of man's extended phenotype. The bomb was made to protect man's habitat (by threat of massive retalation instead of hiding the accesspoint to it).
But it borders on the insane paranoia of both god fearing and non god fearing nations. Mutual destruction is really the casual sentimentality behind such extremes.
|
But the threat of mutual destruction worked. We're still here. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
justintime
BANNED
382 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2011 : 08:35:40 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Originally posted by justintime
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Looks like an interesting book to read. Is it half as good as "The Greatest Show on Earth" then it will be a good read. Is building an atomic bomb also part of the extended phenotype according to Dawkins?
|
That is quite an equivocation.
The self destructive nature of man has been dealt in detail by philosophers, social scientist and some vague premise by Darwin's Evolution theory...the survival of the fittest...
But it borders on the insane paranoia of both god fearing and non god fearing nations. Mutual destruction is really the casual sentimentality behind such extremes.
|
Survival of the fittest was not Darwin.
It was Herbert Spencer.
|
Thank you for the correction. The concept was aready articulated by Charles Darwin. And you are right the actual phrase was by Herbert Spencer.
Darwin's Natural Selection.
"The concept of fitness is central to natural selection. In broad terms, individuals that are more "fit" have better potential for survival. |
| Edited by - justintime on 09/30/2011 09:04:07 |
|
|
|
justintime
BANNED
382 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2011 : 09:01:39 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by justintime
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Looks like an interesting book to read. Is it half as good as "The Greatest Show on Earth" then it will be a good read. Is building an atomic bomb also part of the extended phenotype according to Dawkins?
|
That is quite an equivocation. |
It's a sincere question. Since man arise in nature, and man's behaviour is a combination of genes (nature) and environment (again, nature), and plutonium can be found in nature, then by using the same logic as "a beaver dam is a part of the beaver's extended phenotype" then I can conclude that the atom bomb is a part of man's extended phenotype. The bomb was made to protect man's habitat (by threat of massive retalation instead of hiding the accesspoint to it).
But it borders on the insane paranoia of both god fearing and non god fearing nations. Mutual destruction is really the casual sentimentality behind such extremes.
|
But the threat of mutual destruction worked. We're still here.
|
There are major difference between dams and nuclear bombs, between managing an annoyance and a weapon of mass destruction.
Beavers do not build dams for their survival and theirs reasons for building them are benign.
Building nuclear bombs to act as a deterrent is the justification used for their creation. But they have been used against Japan with another justification that lives were actually saved because of it.
The doomsday clock actually advanced in the last several years. Israel and the US declared all options are on the table if Iran acquires Nuclear capability.
The stockpile of nuclear weapons by the US alone is capable of destroying the Soviets now Russia several hundred times over and vice versa. Maybe we should move it a little closer to assured mutual destruction.
The folly of the cold war and the billions wasted on WMD as well as the threat of nuclear proliferation is a nightmare scenario that is more aptly The extinct phenotype." 
The book that is yet to be written. |
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2011 : 12:05:51 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by justintime
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Originally posted by justintime
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Looks like an interesting book to read. Is it half as good as "The Greatest Show on Earth" then it will be a good read. Is building an atomic bomb also part of the extended phenotype according to Dawkins?
|
That is quite an equivocation.
The self destructive nature of man has been dealt in detail by philosophers, social scientist and some vague premise by Darwin's Evolution theory...the survival of the fittest...
But it borders on the insane paranoia of both god fearing and non god fearing nations. Mutual destruction is really the casual sentimentality behind such extremes.
|
Survival of the fittest was not Darwin.
It was Herbert Spencer.
|
Thank you for the correction. The concept was aready articulated by Charles Darwin. And you are right the actual phrase was by Herbert Spencer.
Darwin's Natural Selection.
"The concept of fitness is central to natural selection. In broad terms, individuals that are more "fit" have better potential for survival.
|
Not what he meant. His meaning had to do with ability to change and adapt to surroundings.
"Let it be remembered how powerful the influence of a single introduced tree or mammal has been shown to be. But in the case of an island, or of a country partly surrounded by barriers, into which new and better adapted forms could not freely enter, we should then have places in the economy of nature which would assuredly be better filled up, if some of the original inhabitants were in some manner modified; for, had the area been open to immigration, these same places would have been seized on by intruders. In such case, every slight modification, which in the course of ages chanced to arise, and which in any way favoured the individuals of any of the species, by better adapting them to their altered conditions, would tend to be preserved; and natural selection would thus have free scope for the work of improvement. " - Charles Darwin, Origin of Species, Chapter 4
"Tend" is the operative word. There are cases where more "fit" species were crowded out by species that replicated faster. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9697 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2011 : 12:08:11 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by justintime
There are major difference between dams and nuclear bombs, between managing an annoyance and a weapon of mass destruction. |
A difference in magnitude of physical force augmented by Man's intelligence, but not really in conceptual type.
Beavers do not build dams for their survival and theirs reasons for building them are benign. |
Of course they do. And your emotional judgement of their reasons is invalid. They are destroying habitats for other living animals and plants.
Building nuclear bombs to act as a deterrent is the justification used for their creation. |
Of course, as building a dam is the beaver's way of protecting its nest.
But they have been used against Japan with another justification that lives were actually saved because of it. |
Are you making an argument that they weren't? None but a few scientists were in a position to recognise the potential for destructive power of the a-bomb until the first one was detonated. Everyone needed to see the devastation of at least one blast for real, before we all could come to appreciate the sense of not using them, and how total a mutual-destruction-plan would be.
The doomsday clock actually advanced in the last several years. Israel and the US declared all options are on the table if Iran acquires Nuclear capability. |
I'm blaming current batch of politicians in USA and Israel for that. Ultimately also the voters. (I think I'll stop here. Most SFNers are tired of hearing me ranting about the evils of US foreign policies)
The stockpile of nuclear weapons by the US alone is capable of destroying the Soviets now Russia several hundred times over and vice versa. Maybe we should move it a little closer to assured mutual destruction. |
Or designing nuclear energy power plants for domestic use, which can be powered by retired a-bombs. There's a lot of energy waiting to be harvested.
|
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
justintime
BANNED
382 Posts |
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9697 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2011 : 14:51:12 [Permalink]
|
Ok, so the beavers are even more like humans than I thought. It wasn't for increasing the safety of their lair, but just to keep the noise level down.
Not unlike how USA managed to silence the Japanese during WW2 by blowing two f*ing large bombs over their cities. 
|
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
justintime
BANNED
382 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2011 : 15:39:14 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Ok, so the beavers are even more like humans than I thought. It wasn't for increasing the safety of their lair, but just to keep the noise level down.
Not unlike how USA managed to silence the Japanese during WW2 by blowing two f*ing large bombs over their cities.
|
Now that was nasty Dr. Mabuse. History has no concluded yet. When the US like Britain ceases to be an Empire. We have to be prepared to accept some revisionist history lessons.
The great fight against the threat of communism...China, Soviet Union for example. The biggest trading partner and holder of US treasury bonds today is still a communist country China.
The US has a black president. That is the ultimate vindication of all that was wrong about America. Only Americans have short memories. The rest of the world are history buffs. |
| Edited by - justintime on 09/30/2011 16:26:18 |
|
|
 |
|
An evolutionary psychologist said
