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 Brian Dunning has pleaded guilty to wire fraud
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 05/13/2013 :  04:06:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

because a persons legal issues have no bearing on whether they are a good skeptic. It's a moral issue and skepticism is amoral.
The kind of skepticism we're talking about is aimed as exposing fraud and consumer protection, both moral issues. Within the skeptic movement, if one is going to be intentionally deceptive, it needs to be to further those moral goals (for example, Joe Nickell's undercover investigations), and not contrary to them.

Had Dunning been charged with reckless driving, public drunkenness or even manslaughter, I'd agree with you. But the type of crime he committed is directly relevant to (and contrary to) the goals of modern skepticism.

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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Norway
1273 Posts

Posted - 05/13/2013 :  18:01:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dunning's own fraud doesn't mean he is incapable of exposing the fraud of others. It might even give him an edge. A lot of his work also deals with other areas of skepticism. It's classic poisoning the well.

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 05/13/2013 :  19:37:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Dunning's own fraud doesn't mean he is incapable of exposing the fraud of others. It might even give him an edge. A lot of his work also deals with other areas of skepticism. It's classic poisoning the well.
Here's the deal. I'm pretty much willing to give Dunning a qualified pass. It's up to the courts to decide what to do and I'll leave it at that. But I agree with everything Dave wrote above. Also, if we were to say that Dunning's videos and podcast can't be trusted, because Brian Dunning was caught in a scam, that would be poisoning the well. No one is saying that.

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 05/13/2013 :  23:18:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Dunning's own fraud doesn't mean he is incapable of exposing the fraud of others.
As Kil's last sentence notes, the above is a classic straw man.
It might even give him an edge.
It might, but nobody has shown that it does.
A lot of his work also deals with other areas of skepticism.
A bunch of his work has also been shown to be sub-par, in other areas of skepticism. And his response to criticism in those other areas has been far below the skeptical ideal. Much more directly relevant points.

So there are a few reasons I'm not enthused about the guy. What he got arrested for is neither the only reason nor the primary reason. The well was poisoned by Dunning himself long before he was charged with any crime.

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 03/10/2014 :  09:41:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jason Thibeault, Fraudster skeptic Brian Dunning’s shell game:
I do not consent to the skeptical “brand”, insofar as there is one, being represented by malicious con-men and other ne’er-do-wells. The skeptical way of thinking is a toolset that supplements a person’s identity. Not every person’s identity toolset is complete — many people lack empathy or a strong moral compass, among other numerous lacks. The skeptical toolset has too long been associated with amoral Libertarian con-artists that comprise the big-name skeptics, like Dunning, and I’d very much like that to end now. We have enough of an image problem with so-called “honest liars”; no need to prop up dishonest con-artists as part of a package deal.

Speak up. Repudiate any efforts to resurrect the Skeptoid brand. Dissociate yourselves from it if you have ties. Dunning is an unrepentant con-man and none of us need to go down with his ship.

I say that as someone who got into movement skepticism with Skeptoid being the first podcast I ever listened to.

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 03/10/2014 :  10:29:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The skeptical toolset has too long been associated with amoral Libertarian con-artists that comprise the big-name skeptics, like Dunning, and I’d very much like that to end now.
It's true that somewhere around 30% of those who identify is skeptics are libertarian. But who are the other libertarian "con-artists?" Certainly I don't agree with libertarian politics, and neither do the majority of the people who identify Skeptics.

I think bad behaviour, which should be dealt with, is being conflated with a political or economic philosophy that the writer doesn't like, as if libertarians are more likely to commit or justify a crime. I don't agree with the philosophy of libertarianism either, but I don't think the movement is "associated with amoral libertarian con-artists." All in all, the majority of Skeptics are on the liberal progressive side of things. That's been my observation anyhow.

I guess what I'm saying is I don't think that part of the linked post is relevant to the issue of what Brian Dunning did. Libertarian doesn't equal criminal or amoral, which seems to be implied by the writer, even if I do think libertarians are full of crap.

That said, we should not excuse Dunning's behaviour.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2014 :  11:16:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Brian Dunning Sentenced to 15 Months in Prison for Fraud:
…Sentencing has finally occurred, and the result is 15 months in prison starting on September 2, 2014, followed by three years of supervised release.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2014 :  01:06:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Brian Dunning Sentenced to 15 Months in Prison for Fraud:
…Sentencing has finally occurred, and the result is 15 months in prison starting on September 2, 2014, followed by three years of supervised release.

Heh.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Norway
1273 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2014 :  02:35:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
well if he's not going to be making podcasts for 15 months I'm definitely cnaceling my monthly micropayment!

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 08/07/2014 :  09:44:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A Critical Analysis of Brian Dunning’s Explanation
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

well if he's not going to be making podcasts for 15 months I'm definitely cnaceling my monthly micropayment!
According to Dunning:
In the meantime, the Skeptoid podcast is going to continue uninterrupted, using a combination of banked episodes and guest hosts, so you can continue to expect the same high quality show every week.

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 08/07/2014 :  11:23:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here is Dunning's statement without commentary. I found it through a Jim Lippard tweet and was going to post it here anyhow.

A Message From Brian

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2014 :  15:54:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The sophistry and revisionist history in Skeptoid Brian Dunning’s statement.

Dunning shows up in the comments to complain about there being a lot of stuff wrong with the post, but didn't say what.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 08/17/2014 :  11:27:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

The sophistry and revisionist history in Skeptoid Brian Dunning’s statement.

Dunning shows up in the comments to complain about there being a lot of stuff wrong with the post, but didn't say what.
Yeah.

You know, I get the legal stuff that Dunning's lawyer's did to get him as light a sentence as possible. It is there job, afterall. But if Dunning is going to continue to be less than forthright about his crime, considering that one of the things we do is fight against fraud, I don't see how skeptics can rationalize continued support for Skeptoid.

What sucks in this case (and others that I can think of) is that good content came out of Skeptoid which this case doesn't erase.

Sigh...


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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