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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
 Posted - 06/23/2013 : 12:12:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
I was talking about The Apostles, Mary Magdalene, Paul, the over 500 witnesses for some. |
Is there any independent verification of the existence of any of those witnesses?
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Luke, Mathew, John, Mark, Paul,
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You do know that those authors likely didn't even exist, right? And those writings of theirs were written decades later?
http://www.bartdehrman.com/books/jesus_interrupted.htm
- The authors of the New Testament have diverging views about who Jesus was and how salvation works
- The New Testament contains books that were forged in the names of the apostles by Christian writers who lived decades later
- Jesus, Paul, Matthew, and John all represented fundamentally different religions
- Established Christian doctrines—such as the suffering messiah, the divinity of Jesus, and the trinity—were the inventions of still later theologians
These are not idiosyncratic perspectives of just one modern scholar. As Ehrman skillfully demonstrates, they have been the standard and widespread views of critical scholars across a full spectrum of denominations and traditions. Why is it most people have never heard such things? This is the book that pastors, educators, and anyone interested in the Bible have been waiting for—a clear and compelling account of the central challenges we face when attempting to reconstruct the life and message of Jesus. |
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 06/23/2013 12:18:29 |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2013 : 12:14:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by the_ignored
by Convinced
Do unchanging moral truths exist? |
Apparently not. Xians like William Lane Craig have no problem with babies being killed, so long as god is the one ordering it.
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Why do you have a problem with babies being killed?
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Why do you not, at least when "god" orders it? How's about dealing with the moral contradiction instead of trying to shift around?
Why do you religious apologists always effing do that? |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2013 : 12:16:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Convinced
| Originally posted by Dave W.And? Different Wild Cards stories attest to others in the series. Doesn't make any of them more true. |
I agree but none of those have any eyewitness testimony that anything in that anthology actually happened or any fulfilled prophesy. |
What eyewitness testimony? Everyone from that era is dead. |
I was talking about The Apostles, Mary Magdalene, Paul, the over 500 witnesses for some.
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The "500 witnesses"? Hah. There is one mention of those so-called "500 witnesses" in the bible. That's it. Nothing else.
Where are all those reports of the "saints" rising from the dead at the time that jesus supposedly did?
Where are all of their reports? Where are their testimonies? For all we know, the bible writer made this up.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2013 : 10:50:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the_ignored
Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
I was talking about The Apostles, Mary Magdalene, Paul, the over 500 witnesses for some. |
Is there any independent verification of the existence of any of those witnesses?
|
Luke, Mathew, John, Mark, Paul,
|
You do know that those authors likely didn't even exist, right? And those writings of theirs were written decades later?
http://www.bartdehrman.com/books/jesus_interrupted.htm
- The authors of the New Testament have diverging views about who Jesus was and how salvation works
- The New Testament contains books that were forged in the names of the apostles by Christian writers who lived decades later
- Jesus, Paul, Matthew, and John all represented fundamentally different religions
- Established Christian doctrines—such as the suffering messiah, the divinity of Jesus, and the trinity—were the inventions of still later theologians
These are not idiosyncratic perspectives of just one modern scholar. As Ehrman skillfully demonstrates, they have been the standard and widespread views of critical scholars across a full spectrum of denominations and traditions. Why is it most people have never heard such things? This is the book that pastors, educators, and anyone interested in the Bible have been waiting for—a clear and compelling account of the central challenges we face when attempting to reconstruct the life and message of Jesus. |
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If I can find the book at Half Price Books I will read it. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2013 : 10:54:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the_ignored
Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by the_ignored
by Convinced
Do unchanging moral truths exist? |
Apparently not. Xians like William Lane Craig have no problem with babies being killed, so long as god is the one ordering it.
|
Why do you have a problem with babies being killed?
|
Why do you not, at least when "god" orders it? How's about dealing with the moral contradiction instead of trying to shift around?
Why do you religious apologists always effing do that?
|
I will admit that it bothers me, but God has that right. Every single person on the planet deserves to die right now for the right judgment of the sin they have committed. The fact that we are still alive is a testament to god’s grace.
Can you now tell me why you think your morality is the one everyone should follow?
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2013 : 20:53:45 [Permalink]
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by the Convinced
I will admit that it bothers me, but God has that right. |
How so? Do parents have the right to kill their children?
| Every single person on the planet deserves to die right now for the right judgment of the sin they have committed. |
Which sin? ANY of them? So if a person just thinks the wrong thing, then bam! The death penalty?
Nice how xians rationalize genocide by saying that we all "deserve" to die.
The fact that we are still alive is a testament to god’s grace.
Can you now tell me why you think your morality is the one everyone should follow? |
Because my philosophy isn't an anti-human one like yours? Because I don't advocate that every single human being deserves to die just for being fucking alive?
Fixed quote tag.
Kil |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 06/24/2013 20:59:15 |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2013 : 06:34:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the_ignored
by the Convinced
I will admit that it bothers me, but God has that right. |
How so? Do parents have the right to kill their children? |
No.
| Which sin? ANY of them? So if a person just thinks the wrong thing, then bam! The death penalty? |
Yes any of them. Jesus says in Matthew chapter 5 that if you lust then you have committed adultery in your heart and if you are angry with someone without cause you have committed murder in your heart. God judges the heart, your actions just show us what is in your heart.
| Because my philosophy isn't an anti-human one like yours? Because I don't advocate that every single human being deserves to die just for being fucking alive? |
This is not my view. You deserve death because you have sinned against Gods right and Holy laws. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2013 : 07:42:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
You deserve death because you have sinned against Gods right and Holy laws. |
And you think that for no other reason than your faith, correct? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2013 : 12:44:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
You deserve death because you have sinned against Gods right and Holy laws. |
And you think that for no other reason than your faith, correct?
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Yes, without God there would not be any objective moral laws to follow. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2013 : 14:40:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Yes, without God there would not be any objective moral laws to follow. |
The fact that your subjective faith is the basis for your morality means that you don't follow any objective moral laws. If you lose your faith, your foundation for ethics vanishes from your mind. Thus, there's no objectivity to be found, there.
Plus, I submit that the Bible doesn't offer a guide to morality at all, because the solution is always the same. Take the runaway train problem, for example: you see an out-of-control train barreling down some tracks towards five people who are asleep on the tracks (and you know you can't wake up), but you have access to a switch that will re-route the train onto another set of tracks on which only one person sleeps (ditto). Do you throw the switch or not?
With the Bible in hand, whether you take action or not is irrelevant. For one thing, whether one person or five people die it must be God's Will, either way, because God commands life and death. For another, the Gospel solution is always the same: repent of any sin you think you may have committed in either throwing or not throwing the switch, ask forgiveness from Jesus (not the victims' families) and go about your merry way, secure of your place in Heaven.
Or can you quote me chapter and verse as to what the correct answer to the runaway train problem is, objectively? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2013 : 17:35:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by the_ignored
by the Convinced
I will admit that it bothers me, but God has that right. |
How so? Do parents have the right to kill their children? |
No.
| Which sin? ANY of them? So if a person just thinks the wrong thing, then bam! The death penalty? |
Yes any of them. Jesus says in Matthew chapter 5 that if you lust then you have committed adultery in your heart and if you are angry with someone without cause you have committed murder in your heart. God judges the heart, your actions just show us what is in your heart.
| Because my philosophy isn't an anti-human one like yours? Because I don't advocate that every single human being deserves to die just for being fucking alive? |
This is not my view. You deserve death because you have sinned against Gods right and Holy laws.
|
Care to explain then, what the babies god had killed on the OT did to deserve death then? |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2013 : 17:36:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
You deserve death because you have sinned against Gods right and Holy laws. |
And you think that for no other reason than your faith, correct?
|
Yes, without God there would not be any objective moral laws to follow.
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Bullshit. Killing babies? It's ok if god does it...Lying, it's ok if god tells you to. (Ask the OT prophet Samuel about that one).
Xians are never able to realize that what they have is actually subjective morality. |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 06/25/2013 17:37:19 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2013 : 08:45:37 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
We know that certain events described in the Bible simply did not happen...
so we know that the Bible isn't 100% accurate...
So, since we know that there was no global flood etc.... |
One thing I do know is that there is an awful lot that we as humans do not know. Dave does not know any of this. He may believe it, but knowing and believing are certainly not one in the same.
| If the Bible isn't 100% accurate, then maybe where it says "The bible itself says that is spiritually discerned or God gives you that knowledge," the Bible is wrong. |
One thing I think we can all agree on is that science does make assumptions and that because humans do science is one reason we have errors in science. When assumptions are used and errors are introduced incorrect conclusions are reached and mis-information is given. This has created the reality where the science of yesterday, based on it's assumptions and errors, could be proven the junk science of today. And then that science, based on it's assumptions and errors could be proven invalid by future science. And then that future science, which was based on it's assumptions and errors could be invalidated by even more future science. And then that future science could be proven invalid............ Yes science is open to the latest findings and is corrected based on those latest findings, but this does not affect at all the reality that what is called science today, because of it's assumptions and unknown errors, very well could be proven as junk science tomorrow. If science isn't 100% accurate, then maybe where it says "Fill in the blank with your favorite science claim" the science is wrong. Out of arrogance, ignorance or both one claims to know that this happened 5 millions years ago and this did not happen 5000 years ago. I have my beliefs but I certainly wouldn't be silly enough to claim that I know what happened 5, 10, 15, million years ago.
Again, one might believe this or that happened 65 million years ago but they certainly don't know that it did. For the agnostic/atheistic skeptic to claim that the Christian believes while the agnostic/atheistic skeptic knows is a complete fabrication considering the reality of the agnostics/atheistic skeptic's belief in the assumptions and errors of his/her science. The agnostic/atheistic skeptics false belief that they know is usually based on arrogance, ignorance or both. The reality is that Dave has his beliefs and I have my beliefs but neither of us can truthfully claim that we know. Dave might believe that all evidence points in the direction of his beliefs being true over mine but that is just his belief. He certainly does not know that there was never a global flood no matter how much he believes that there never was one.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 06/26/2013 08:50:50 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2013 : 09:16:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
One thing I do know is that there is an awful lot that we as humans do not know. Dave does not know any of this. He may believe it, but knowing and believing are certainly not one in the same. |
No, I know it. No belief necessary.| One thing I think we can all agree on is that science does make assumptions and that because humans do science is one reason we have errors in science. When assumptions are used and errors are introduced incorrect conclusions are reached and mis-information is given. This has created the reality where the science of yesterday, based on it's assumptions and errors, could be proven the junk science of today. And then that science, based on it's assumptions and errors could be proven invalid by future science. And then that future science, which was based on it's assumptions and errors could be invalidated by even more future science. And then that future science could be proven invalid............ Yes science is open to the latest findings and is corrected based on those latest findings, but this does not affect at all the reality that what is called science today, because of it's assumptions and unknown errors, very well could be proven as junk science tomorrow. |
"Could be" being the important part.| If science isn't 100% accurate, then maybe where it says "Fill in the blank with your favorite science claim" the science is wrong. Out of arrogance, ignorance or both one claims to know that this happened 5 millions years ago and this did not happen 5000 years ago. I have my beliefs but I certainly wouldn't be silly enough to claim that I know what happened 5, 10, 15, million years ago. |
That's because you're averse to evidence in general, and don't understand the process of science in particular.| Dave might believe that all evidence points in the direction of his beliefs being true over mine but that is just his belief. He certainly does not know that there was never a global flood no matter how much he believes that there never was one. |
Following your logic to its obvious conclusion means that you must have faith in everything. You can't know how much money is in your wallet, for example.
The difference between you and I, Bill, is that I've found a way to logically (and thus concretely) escape solipsism, while you haven't, thus I no longer have to assume that a world exists outside my own mind, while you're forced to have faith. Our epistemologies, therefore, are not on equal footing: mine are far superior to yours. You keep on telling yourself that it's due to my arrogance or ignorance if it'll make you feel better, but it's simply a fact that I have reliable tools with which to gather real knowledge, and you don't. Hell, Bill, using your "logic," you can't even know that I can't know anything. Bwahahahaha!
Hey, Bill, since you're back, will you respond to the questions I asked you? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
 Posted - 06/26/2013 : 09:41:16 [Permalink]
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Bill scott and Dave W., I was about to admonish you both for meandering off topic, but then I realized this entire discussion has been rambling off topic for about 5 pages now....
Anyway, a philosophical discussion of the underlying assumptions and methodology of science/empiricism vs. religion/faith would be very interesting, but I suggest we start a new thread for it. |
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God-given racism
