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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 06/26/2013 : 10:12:33 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| No, I know it. No belief necessary. |
So you believe.
| "Could be" being the important part. |
Ya because science has never been wrong or corrected, right?
| That's because you're averse to evidence in general, and don't understand the process of science in particular. |
Just your belief.
| Following your logic to its obvious conclusion means that you must have faith in everything. |
Well I just followed the logic to the point where it demonstrates that the agnostic/atheistic skeptic believes rather than knows, but you can suit yourself.
| You can't know how much money is in your wallet, for example. |
Yes, that is right. When a human counts money, just as when humans do science, errors can arise, which lead one to believe that they know how much money is their wallet while at the same time they are oblivious to their accounting error.
| The difference between you and I, Bill, is that I've found a way to logically (and thus concretely) escape solipsism, while you haven't, thus I no longer have to assume that a world exists outside my own mind, while you're forced to have faith. |
So you believe.
| Our epistemologies, therefore, are not on equal footing: mine are far superior to yours. |
And you really seem to believe this too.
| You keep on telling yourself that it's due to my arrogance or ignorance if it'll make you feel better, |
It's my belief that it is due to arrogance/ignorance or both but I don't know that.
| but it's simply a fact that I have reliable tools with which to gather real knowledge, and you don't. |
So you believe.
| Hell, Bill, using your "logic," you can't even know that I can't know anything. Bwahahahaha! |
You are starting to catch on, Dave. Good for you. I believe what you have just reveled for us is that what we really have here is one set of beliefs vs. another set of beliefs. I believe that the one who says they know proves their arrogance/ignorance here. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2013 : 10:32:19 [Permalink]
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| Here is the short version: Because science contains assumptions and human errors, which is corrected and updated by science that contains assumption and human errors, which is corrected and updated by science that contains assumption and human errors, which is corrected and updated by science that contains assumption and human errors,etc... etc.... to say that "based off of the science I know this or I know that" is arrogant and/or ignorant. If you want to say that "based of of the science I believe this or that" this would not be considered arrogant or ignorant. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2013 : 11:27:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the_ignored
Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
You deserve death because you have sinned against Gods right and Holy laws. |
And you think that for no other reason than your faith, correct?
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Yes, without God there would not be any objective moral laws to follow.
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Bullshit. Killing babies? It's ok if god does it...Lying, it's ok if god tells you to. (Ask the OT prophet Samuel about that one). |
Are you talking about 1 Sam 16?
Xians are never able to realize that what they have is actually subjective morality.
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Why? The morality God expects is pretty clearly laid out in the Bible. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2013 : 13:58:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| The difference between you and I, Bill, is that I've found a way to logically (and thus concretely) escape solipsism, while you haven't, thus I no longer have to assume that a world exists outside my own mind, while you're forced to have faith. |
So you believe. |
So you insist that logic is a matter of faith, too? I guess when you, Bill, only have a hammer, everything must look like nails.| You are starting to catch on, Dave. Good for you. I believe what you have just reveled for us is that what we really have here is one set of beliefs vs. another set of beliefs. |
No, that's merely your belief. I know better.| I believe that the one who says they know proves their arrogance/ignorance here. |
Believe that all you want, if it makes you feel superior. I know exactly where you're stuck, philosophically, and tried to help you out, but if you don't want that help, that's no skin off my nose.
You summarized:| Here is the short version: Because science contains assumptions and human errors, which is corrected and updated by science that contains assumption and human errors, which is corrected and updated by science that contains assumption and human errors, which is corrected and updated by science that contains assumption and human errors,etc... etc.... to say that "based off of the science I know this or I know that" is arrogant and/or ignorant. |
No, you're just ironically pointing out the context and then ignoring it, all in one sentence. The mental gymnastics you're going through in trying to justify your argument must be very tiring.
Let me give you a hint: a hundred years ago, scientists really did know that continents don't move.
What will really blow your mind is if you go look up the most-common philosophical definition of "knowledge." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2013 : 14:00:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Boron10
Bill scott and Dave W., I was about to admonish you both for meandering off topic, but then I realized this entire discussion has been rambling off topic for about 5 pages now....
Anyway, a philosophical discussion of the underlying assumptions and methodology of science/empiricism vs. religion/faith would be very interesting, but I suggest we start a new thread for it. |
Sorry, didn't see this message until after I'd replied on the next page. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2013 : 16:08:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by the_ignored
Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
You deserve death because you have sinned against Gods right and Holy laws. |
And you think that for no other reason than your faith, correct?
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Yes, without God there would not be any objective moral laws to follow.
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Bullshit. Killing babies? It's ok if god does it...Lying, it's ok if god tells you to. (Ask the OT prophet Samuel about that one). |
Are you talking about 1 Sam 16?
Xians are never able to realize that what they have is actually subjective morality.
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Why? The morality God expects is pretty clearly laid out in the Bible.
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Isn't it obvious? Read again what I said: baby-killing is OK if god orders it done, otherwise it isn't. Subjective morality is when the morality of an action is based on who does it, not on the harm done to the victim.
It's not rocket science you know. |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2013 : 17:00:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
The morality God expects is pretty clearly laid out in the Bible. |
Then what does god expect you to do if faced with the runaway train problem? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2013 : 18:17:39 [Permalink]
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| Some might say pray for divine intervention. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2013 : 06:53:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
Some might say pray for divine intervention.
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Jesus take the wheel |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2013 : 11:25:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by the_ignored
Because I don't advocate that every single human being deserves to die just for being fucking alive? |
This is not my view. |
I thought that was a logical conclusion to what you've told us about your faith.
You deserve death because you have sinned against Gods right and Holy laws.
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Premise: those who sin deserve death.
Premise: Original sin makes everyone alive sinful
Conclusion: everyone alive deserves death.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2013 : 11:54:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Siberia
Originally posted by sailingsoul
Some might say pray for divine intervention.
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Jesus take the wheel
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Exactly, put another way "surrender your life to god". Which means in reality surrender to those who claim to speak for him. It's the same for Muslims, the root word for Islam is “al-Silm,” which means “submission” or “surrender.” What a totally revolting and pathetic thought for anyone capable of fully understanding what that produces. Imaginary God's need their believers to get anything done. Real Gods can do their own bidding quite nicely without assistance from the pathetic sinners that apparently Christians and all Theists make mankind out to be. I say they should speak for and about themselves and quit passing judgement on other people when they do.
There has been in fact throughout history and globally more Gods imagined than u can shake a stick at. There is absolutely no difference between all the imaginary false Gods and any God that is being worshiped today. If there is I have yet to hear it or been enlightened by those who are privy to any difference. If there is a God who wants or NEEDS my praises that God is more than capable to make me aware of it. It certainly is not any self described prophet who isn't even believable to other Christians. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2013 : 19:46:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by the_ignored
Because I don't advocate that every single human being deserves to die just for being fucking alive? |
This is not my view. |
I thought that was a logical conclusion to what you've told us about your faith.
You deserve death because you have sinned against Gods right and Holy laws.
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Premise: those who sin deserve death.
Premise: Original sin makes everyone alive sinful
Conclusion: everyone alive deserves death.
Edit
Just remembered: The "snake" was telling the truth when he said that if they eat of the fruit that adam and eve would be "like unto the gods". After they ate it, that's what god himself was supposed to have said.
Yet, the devil is said to be the "father of lies" and "there is no truth in him" by jesus in the NT.
Kind of troubling if the xian tradition of the devil inhabiting/influencing the serpent is true, eh?
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Original sin is even more stupid than it first appears: They ate of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Until then, they couldn't know that eating of that fruit contrary to god's instructions would be "evil" because they didn't have that knowledge yet.
It smells of a setup to fail to me. Or, more likely, ancient people making a "just-so" story to explain why shit happens. |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 06/27/2013 19:48:30 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2013 : 22:47:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the_ignored
Original sin is even more stupid than it first appears: They ate of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Until then, they couldn't know that eating of that fruit contrary to god's instructions would be "evil" because they didn't have that knowledge yet.
It smells of a setup to fail to me. |
Indeed. And when I point that out, it is explained to me that A&E still "disobeyed." But they didn't know that disobeying was "sin" or "evil." They couldn't know that. They were, if the story is true, prevented from having such knowledge. But still the people who want to believe the story foist all the responsibility on the purposefully-kept-ignorant victims. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2013 : 04:31:18 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
So, since we know that there was no global flood...
You keep on telling yourself that it's due to my arrogance or ignorance if it'll make you feel better, but it's simply a fact that I have reliable tools with which to gather real knowledge. |
Fine Dave suit yourself. If you want to continue to proclaim that you have superior knowledge, in spite of any and all assumptions and human errors, that over the 4.54 billion years or so that the earth has been in exisitence that you know that there has never been a global flood then go right ahead. You are just making yourself look silly by insisting that you know this. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2013 : 04:55:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Fine Dave suit yourself. If you want to continue to proclaim that you have superior knowledge, in spite of any and all assumptions and human errors, that over the 4.54 billion years or so that the earth has been in exisitence that you know that there has never been a global flood then go right ahead. You are just making yourself look silly by insisting that you know this. |
And if you want to make yourself feel superior by believing that there's a reasonable doubt about the non-existence of a global flood, you go ahead and keep on telling yourself that.
Looking silly in the eyes of a creationist like you doesn't bother me one little bit. The fact that your faith blinds you so much that you'll reject knowledge (and insist that others should, also) is not a failure on my part.
Matthew 7:1-5, Bill. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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God-given racism
