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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
 Posted - 07/19/2013 : 17:37:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by sailingsoul
This failure we have in office now is a joke when it comes to keeping the promises he ran on. |
Politifact.com says the Obameter is at 45%.
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So less than half of people polled responded "Promise Kept". That's a bit vague and not being specific with what promises they might have had on their mind or which ones they feel he's kept. Out of the other points (examples) I specifically raised I find it interesting you addressed that there have been promises keep. To that I concede. If it came across that I felt he hasn't kept any, I wasn't trying to say that. Agreeing with that, that one sentence should have been toned down a bit. Would you care to point out anything else that was so overly stated? I would like to know if there is. So I might correct it if necessary.
Originally posted by Kil
I didn't say Obama is perfect. Far from it. But bringing up a plan that hasn't even gone into full effect is not relevant. As I understand it, however, it is projected to lower premiums for people like me by a lot. It might even make health insurance affordable through exchanges. And it's already done a lot of good things. The Republicans in congress have tried to vote out the plan 39 times, which if actually passed would just be vetoed, but ignored the jobs bill and will probably block immigration reform. They are worse than useless.
I have been disappointed with Obama, plenty. But he can't be blamed for what red states are doing to women's reproductive rights. And that will bite the Republicans. It might even bring Texas over.
I think my assessment is correct. I don't recall expounding on how great Obama has been. But what can't be said, even though these so-called conservatives say it all the time is that he's a socialist. That's ridiculous.
Obama has been a mixed bag.
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And I don't really believe he's been a total failure either, we agree on that. I too understand what he's been up against from before his first day in office, when upon winning the election, many Republicans (if not all) vowed together to make his term a complete failure. That right there was a big red flag which he apparently missed for way to long. By coming into office thinking he was going to get anywhere compromising with those that made such pledges the days and week after the election I believe was a mistake. Obama wasted lost a lot of his first year or two giving away to much before changing his approach and seeing he was the only one giving and not getting shit. We might as well just had a moderate Republican. Reading what you wrote so far I can find only one thing to disagree with.
That would be your assessment that Texas and other Republican states are going to vote in Democratic Senators and House Representatives as a result of what is going on in their party still. I know you didn't say that out right but if I'm correct you do think that if Repub's don't lighten up they are going to loose more seats in congress than if they were to lighten up on their ways rhetoric. Is that your stance?
There is always the possibility you could be correct but I don't see that for this next election cycle. Presidential elections are something else but remember midterm cycles do not bring out the same total numbers. The voters who come out typically are the more hard core, the most ardent voters and not likely to be jumping ship. The Republicans might be thinking it's in their best interest not to change for this next cycle. The same thing applies with the other Red states out there. I don't know how much time have you spend in hard core red states like Texas, but I don't see Texas turning much Democratic this cycle. I really will be very happy if I turn out to be the one less correct by any measure and more so if completely.
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There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2013 : 18:04:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
So less than half of people polled responded "Promise Kept". |
No, 45% of his campaign promises have been kept. Another 25% he compromised on. There's no polling involved.| That's a bit vague and not being specific with what promises they might have had on their mind or which ones they feel he's kept. |
No, Politifact lists all of his campaign promises, and whether they've been kept, broken, compromised, are still in the works, etc.
The problem is that we have no data with which to compare Obama. Nobody (so far as I know) has gone back and retroactively created the Bushometer, for example. So we don't know if a 45% kept rate is historically high, low or average. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2013 : 18:27:03 [Permalink]
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Val:
The Republican alternative... |
You're kidding, right? There is no Republican alternative (aside from trashing Obamacare) that the Republicans are willing to vote for. Which means there is no Republican alternative. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2013 : 20:58:06 [Permalink]
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| After reading the comments here, I'm reminded of a comment on the pharyngula chat room during that FtB thing they got going: "If voting was truly effective, it'd have been banned by now". |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2013 : 22:17:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by sailingsoul
So less than half of people polled responded "Promise Kept". |
No, 45% of his campaign promises have been kept. Another 25% he compromised on. There's no polling involved.| That's a bit vague and not being specific with what promises they might have had on their mind or which ones they feel he's kept. |
No, Politifact lists all of his campaign promises, and whether they've been kept, broken, compromised, are still in the works, etc.
The problem is that we have no data with which to compare Obama. Nobody (so far as I know) has gone back and retroactively created the Bushometer, for example. So we don't know if a 45% kept rate is historically high, low or average.
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Thank you for straightening me out on my misunderstanding of Obama's record with that link Dave. Basing an opinion on inaccurate or insufficient data has got to have erroneous conclusions. Being a victim of that occurring should never be embarrassing unless one is unwilling to correct the problem. I looked through it some so far and there is more to go over than I have time tonight but I will. Thanks again for that.
I don't believe I properly commented on what kil commented on before. | But still... Imagine how it would have been if the Republicans had not declared war on Obama? |
I agree without a doubt things for the country could be so much different if he hadn't had so much obstructionism from those elected supposedly to be part of running this country.
By the way. Obama does stuff and then doesn't use it much to improve his PR. That's been a failing of this administration. Terrible PR. |
I agree, possibly the source of my being as unaware as I am until I look into his record further. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2013 : 06:36:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
Basing an opinion on inaccurate or insufficient data has got to have erroneous conclusions. Being a victim of that occurring should never be embarrassing unless one is unwilling to correct the problem. |
Which is why I've got to say that I was wrong, we do have historical data on presidential campaign promises. Thanks to this WaPo article I was led to this book (available used for $584!) which is the result of a study of the campaign promises of Wilson through Carter, and "the author concludes that Presidents have kept approximately three-fourths of their campaign promises while in office."
On its face, that means Obama sucks.
45% versus 75% is pretty crappy. I'd like to think that the study included compromises as promises kept (since Presidents are mostly beholden to Congress to enact their promises), which would bring Obama up to 70%, but I wasn't able to find anyone quoting the book in enough detail to confirm that hypothesis. And my local library system has nothing from Krukones, the author. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2013 : 05:41:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Val:
The Republican alternative... |
You're kidding, right? There is no Republican alternative (aside from trashing Obamacare) that the Republicans are willing to vote for. Which means there is no Republican alternative.
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No. I mean when Obamacare was being considered, the Republicans put up an alternative. I have a PDF fo the proposed legislation from 2009.
It had such things as exchanges, removal of pre-existing conditions, bonus for performance outcomes, and cost about $10 billion over 10 years. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2013 : 11:25:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
You should be sad because there are still many who vote Republican because they don't understand they are voting against their interest. And even more people who don't bother to vote at all.
Every time I hear the word Democracy and USA in the same sentence, I LOL because how can you truly have a democracy when a majority (or at least very close to a majority) of the eligible population won't bother to cast their vote?
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More than a majority of eligible people has voted in nearly every presidential election in the U.S., at least since every state voted for president popularly (some states had their popularly elected officials make the states' decisions for a time before these statistics). 1996 and 1924 the most recent counterexamples, the minimum turnout ever is 48.9.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout_in_the_United_States_presidential_elections (information from the U.S. Census Bureau)
Midterms have turnouts below a majority, though quite often there are varying levels of competitiveness in House and Senate races.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781453.html |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2013 : 12:00:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Originally posted by Kil
Val:
The Republican alternative... |
You're kidding, right? There is no Republican alternative (aside from trashing Obamacare) that the Republicans are willing to vote for. Which means there is no Republican alternative.
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No. I mean when Obamacare was being considered, the Republicans put up an alternative. I have a PDF fo the proposed legislation from 2009.
It had such things as exchanges, removal of pre-existing conditions, bonus for performance outcomes, and cost about $10 billion over 10 years.
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I'd like to see it, I didn't know about this. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2013 : 12:11:28 [Permalink]
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Fun with data, I got interested in party cohesion by party in Congress reading this and made some graphs with data (http://pooleandrosenthal.com/party_unity.htm):
Green is the percentage of roll call votes where at least 50% of each party votes the same way. Red/blue are Republican/Democrat voting with the majority of their party (over all roll call votes).e
The dates go back very far, so red is Federalist/Whig/Republican, blue is Jeffersonian-Republican/Democrat in the appropriate dates.
There seems a steady increase on both sides in the last 40 years, fluctuating back and forth for who is the more cohesive.
edit: ug, weird shadows in the first one, but whatever. It'd be interesting to see what trends look like for presidential election years vs non, members going into a battle for their seats vs non, or president of same party vs president of other party -- but I don't have yearly data =[ |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 07/25/2013 12:19:15 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2013 : 12:39:32 [Permalink]
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AHA!!!
Found a link to it finally.
link here
This is the legislation of which I speak. One that was not allowed to come to the floor for a vote by the Democrat leadership. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2013 : 14:16:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
AHA!!!
Found a link to it finally.
link here
This is the legislation of which I speak. One that was not allowed to come to the floor for a vote by the Democrat leadership.
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Thanks.
Silly language on the first page already "without ... (5) instituting a government takeover of healthcare" |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 07/25/2013 14:16:45 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2013 : 15:31:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Now correlate that data with this chart.
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I'm skeptical of and interested in learning more about DW-NOMINATE, I see normality assumptions I'm not sure if I like, but I must learn more before developing an opinion. It's too beautiful of a picture to not read more! |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 07/25/2013 15:32:57 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2013 : 17:04:27 [Permalink]
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Here's a comparison of plans from Kaiser Health News. And by the way. I don't think the Republicans were ever serious about their version of healthcare reform. And in todays congress, it wouldn't pass a Republican vote even if it made it to the floor. Interestingly, and what everyone should know by now, is that Obamacare if very close to the Republican plan that they put up to combat the Clinton's plan back in 1993.
Chart: Comparing Health Reform Bills: Democrats and Republicans 2009, Republicans 1993 |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Has the G.O.P. Gone Off the Deep End?
