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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
 Posted - 11/06/2013 : 19:19:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Machi4velli
None of these amount to any money to speak of, they're not at all prevalent (222 instances of measles in 2011, 141 of which were patients eligible for vaccines but opted out), and have to be almost entirely negligible... |
You're missing the forest for the trees. And negligible as compared to which health problems endemic to the poor in the US? |
You mentioned these things as examples of behaviors correlated with income that waste health dollars, not me. They're negligible compared to other sources of costs because they hardly exist.
And, these health problems: http://www.gallup.com/poll/158417/poverty-comes-depression-illness.aspx
Double the incidence of depression, 50% higher asthma/diabetes, 75% higher heart attack, etc. Any of these are much greater sources of cost than those things combined.
| Smoking and obesity, wherever they correlate, would I suspect be important to consider. |
Smoking probably doesn't correlate with income. And neither will obesity. Rich people become obese through mere overindulgence. Poor people become obese because non-nutrative sugar is cheap and filling. |
Smoking appears to be inversely correlated to income:
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/21/american-smokers-and-income-charted/?_r=0
The prevalence of obesity is roughly constant at income levels among males, but is inversely correlated with income among females:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db50.htm
There are some trends within particular ethnic groups, but they tend to even out to those general patterns for the full population.
| I'm not even sure what "evening out ROI" means with regards to people's health. |
If ROI on insurance were equal, everyone would get the same $x spent on their healthcare for every $1 they paid for insurance. Of course there will be outliers since outliers are the whole point of insurance, we would be talking about subsets of the population having similar ROI.
| If the claim is that ACA boosts ROI for those at greater risk, and, therefore, reduces ROI for those at lower risk, it may well be true since I certainly don't expect insurance company profits to be cut so much that we have so much found money that everyone's ROI goes up. |
The insurance industry has already declared that their profits will not be cut, and that added costs due to the ACA will be passed on to the customers, one way or another. |
Which customers?
| Even if what is true? "Enjoys" is a strawman. I don't really give a hoot about someone's intent, people who think that decisions about health care should be based on the potential monetary value of the patients are dehumanizing everyone. |
Even if it's true that, "ACA boosts ROI for those at greater risk, and, therefore, reduces ROI for those at lower risk."
"Enjoys" is not so much a straw man as a hyperbolic response to what seems an awfully lot like an ad hominem.
And I don't think it's dehumanizing at all because I mean ROI that a customer gets for the money they invest in their healthcare insurance, not ROI that the insurance company gets from a customer. It's even less dehumanizing given that I'm advocating nothing but measurement.
I'm only arguing a factual claim as to whether the lower risk folks are getting shafted by ACA. I'm not even arguing whether it's a good or bad thing that they are, but I think it's true that they are, which I think was Bill's point. He goes on to say, therefore, it's unfair and he doesn't like it, but that's another discussion. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 11/06/2013 19:21:03 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2013 : 06:49:18 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| ...does nothing to mitigate the racism of your previous comment. Context is important, after all. |
OK let's look at the context.
I said:
"...so that non-working folks and illegal immigrants can have free healthcare."
To which you said:
| Bill, you're transparently a bigot. |
So based on this context and nothing more you start haphazardly throwing around racism accusations at me. Say what?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Others on the forum notice your absurdity
| Dave, there do in fact exist brown people who are not illegal immigrants... you're clearly exaggerating his claim and making something bigoted that wasn't, at least as written. |
To which you say:
| I'm pretty sure you know what that conservative dog-whistle phrase refers to as well as I do. |
So now that illegal immigrant, after being a standard title used by the national medial for decades, is replaced in the PC world with the title "undocumented democrat" anyone who says illegal immigrant is by default a racist? Plus, I didn't know that all illegal immigrants are brown either. Obviously you think so.
Except when it doesn't and someone is actually talking about illegal immigrants...
But why would he? One's legal status has no bearing on whether or not you've got health insurance. As written, the PPACA should mean that immigrants (legal or not) who get sick will cost Bill less in taxes and his own insurance premiums. So he can't be griping about the cost and he's not actually griping about their legal status, so what else could it be? |
Why not just admit that your beef with me is that I disagree with progressives and stop this silly and childish attempt of yours to label me a racist? The longer you try to continue with your silly conclusions the more childish you look.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2013 : 07:24:07 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
No, saying "some of my best friends are black" has never been a good reason to think someone's not a racist. Quite the opposite, actually.
Really, if you want to convince me you're not a racist, all you've got to do is quit saying obviously racist things. |
Oh good grief all I said was that I disagreed with the federal government providing free healthcare to illegal immigrants and you are off to the races with your racism accusations claiming that "illegal immigrant" is some conservative dog whistle phrase and you completely ignore the fact that for decades it was the standard phrase used by the national media and everyone else when discussing the topic of illegal immigration. You are sacrificing common sense in the name of political correctness.
| Pointing to some African Americans as admirable when the vast majority of illegal immigrants aren't African does nothing to mitigate the racism of your previous comment. Context is important, after all. |
Calling someone a bigoted racist for no other reason than they used the formerly accepted phrase illegal immigrant does nothing to mitigate your unfounded and unwarranted spear campaign. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2013 : 11:01:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| I didn't claim you're a racist "simply because [you] don't approve of illegal immigration." |
So why did you? |
I thought I explained it pretty well to Mach. The cost to you of subsidized health insurance for white citizens is going to be far higher than that of illegal immigrants, but which group did you chose to be an exemplar of what's wrong with the ACA?| ...claiming that "illegal immigrant" is some conservative dog whistle phrase and you completely ignore the fact that for decades it was the standard phrase used by the national media and everyone else when discussing the topic of illegal immigration. |
But you weren't talking about illegal immigration, you were talking about the ACA.| You are sacrificing common sense in the name of political correctness. |
Bemoaning "political correctness" is another key behavior engaged in by people who are trying to distract away from their bigotry.| Calling someone a bigoted racist for no other reason than they used the formerly accepted phrase illegal immigrant... |
The phrase "for no other reason" is a lie.| So based on this context... |
Wrong. The context wasn't one phrase in one sentence of yours, Bill. You're just trying to ignore the context, now.| Why not just admit that your beef with me is that I disagree with progressives... |
Because that's a lie.| I'm not sure why one would want to use a race for governor in Virginia as a barometer for the pulse of obamacare... |
You'd have to ask Republican candidate for VA Governor Ken Cuccinelli, 'cause he's the one who said it, and then a day later he lost. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2013 : 12:43:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
You mentioned these things as examples of behaviors correlated with income that waste health dollars, not me. They're negligible compared to other sources of costs because they hardly exist. |
I mentioned them as a few examples, not the only examples. The sum of all the ways the rich waste health dollars isn't likely to also be negligible.Less cancer, huh. Interestingly, the poll suggests that the numbers could be significantly lower if those in poverty has more/better health insurance, thanks to preventative medicine, check-ups, etc., which would cost much less. I'd like to see the same poll, but with "insured" and "uninsured" as the categories. I would hypothesize that those problems correlate better with being uninsured than they do with poverty.| If ROI on insurance were equal, everyone would get the same $x spent on their healthcare for every $1 they paid for insurance. Of course there will be outliers since outliers are the whole point of insurance... |
I see. And yes, if ROI on insurance were equal, there'd be no need for insurance. It'd be pay-as-you-go all around, a model that assures ROI is equal, but poor people get sick and die at much higher rates.| The insurance industry has already declared that their profits will not be cut, and that added costs due to the ACA will be passed on to the customers, one way or another. |
Which customers? |
All of them. What do you mean, "which customers?"| "Enjoys" is not so much a straw man as a hyperbolic response to what seems an awfully lot like an ad hominem. |
It can't be an ad hominem because I don't care what the ACA's effects will be on ROI, since I think the insurance model itself is broken and needs to be eliminated. Regardless of its effects on ROI, the ACA should be kept around because it's a stepping stone towards nationalized health care without insurance.| And I don't think it's dehumanizing at all because I mean ROI that a customer gets for the money they invest in their healthcare insurance... |
Ah, I see.| I'm only arguing a factual claim as to whether the lower risk folks are getting shafted by ACA. I'm not even arguing whether it's a good or bad thing that they are, but I think it's true that they are... |
If you're forced to buy something you'll never use, of course that's "getting shafted." I "get shafted" on a regular basis by the military, welfare, unemployment insurance, the National Endowment for the Arts, the TSA, Bill's church, etc...| ...which I think was Bill's point. |
I wouldn't be so charitable. He turned the cost structure of the ACA on its head, which isn't mere hyperbole. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2013 : 12:55:27 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| I didn't claim you're a racist "simply because [you] don't approve of illegal immigration." |
So why did you? |
I thought I explained it pretty well to Mach.
As written, the PPACA should mean that immigrants (legal or not) who get sick will cost Bill less in taxes and his own insurance premiums. So he can't be griping about the cost |
So according to you if I disagree with giving benefits to illegal immigrants and MY insurance and taxes go up I have a ligament beef but if I disagree with giving benefits to illegal immigrants and MY insurance and taxes stay the same or go down then I am a racist bigot. 
Of course BO also said people could keep their current plans if they like them and we all know how that turned out so I am not holding my breath that my insurance and/or taxes are going down when illegals get healthcare benefits from the feds. In fact my contribution for heath care here at work just went up and the documented reason for the increase given by the carrier was ACA, so by your own ramblings I have a legitimate beef here and the racist accusations are completely unfounded. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2013 : 15:12:40 [Permalink]
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I was wondering: if an illegal immigrant shows up at the ER, do they get treatment? If so, who pays for that treatment? If they get healthcare benefit from the federal government in the future, how is this different?
Do people who don't want illegal immigrants to get healthcare from the government want the ERs to turn them away after somehow verifying their status? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 11/07/2013 15:13:32 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2013 : 05:44:28 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by pleco |
| I was wondering: if an illegal immigrant shows up at the ER, do they get treatment? |
Yes.
| If so, who pays for that treatment? |
I believe right now the hospital technically eats the cost for all uninsured ER visits that do not have the means to pay but I am sure that cost is just one of the reasons heath care costs are what they are. It's raises the costs for those who are payers and/or have insurance.
| If they get healthcare benefit from the federal government in the future, how is this different? |
First off there is a big difference between an ER visit and healthcare benefits. No one is saying that anybody should be denied if they show up at the ER in need of help. What I am saying is that I think it is wrong to give free health care benefits to those who are here illegally and many times are not even paying into the systems. This only raises the cost for those here legally and are paying into the system. What part of "illegal" do you not understand when referring to illegal immigrants?
| Do people who don't want illegal immigrants to get healthcare from the government want the ERs to turn them away after somehow verifying their status? |
No one is saying to turn people away at the ER. What most conservatives are saying is that illegal immigrants should not be getting long term heath care benefits packages from the federal government. Legal immigrants who are entitled to benefits I have no problem with. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2013 : 07:40:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| I didn't claim you're a racist "simply because [you] don't approve of illegal immigration." |
So why did you? |
I thought I explained it pretty well to Mach.
As written, the PPACA should mean that immigrants (legal or not) who get sick will cost Bill less in taxes and his own insurance premiums. So he can't be griping about the cost |
So according to you if I disagree with giving benefits to illegal immigrants and MY insurance and taxes go up I have a ligament beef but if I disagree with giving benefits to illegal immigrants and MY insurance and taxes stay the same or go down then I am a racist bigot.
Of course BO also said people could keep their current plans if they like them and we all know how that turned out so I am not holding my breath that my insurance and/or taxes are going down when illegals get healthcare benefits from the feds. In fact my contribution for heath care here at work just went up and the documented reason for the increase given by the carrier was ACA, so by your own ramblings I have a legitimate beef here and the racist accusations are completely unfounded.
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Here's the issue.
Bill is already paying for illegal immigrant's healthcare (EMTALA of 1985, all non-paid charges translate to higher costs of care for the paying public).
By reducing the amount of uninsured the amount of loss is supposed to go down (slowing the pace of health care increases). Illegals already cannot get subsidies or healthcare through the exchanges (ACA has a provision strictly for that, as the current illegal population is approximately 20 million and falling, you see where this is going.).
The contribution to healthcare went up due to the new massive taxes on healthcare and DME. Add to that the limits on charging the chronically sick (capped at 4 times "normal" rate) and you have a flatter distribution of healthcare costs. Illegals don't enter into the equasion. They never did. Their impact is already felt.
So, your increase is due to the $8 billion in taxes on the Health insurance companies, the $1/life/year going up to $2/life/year certification fees, the $2.3 billion taxes on DME (Durable Medical Equipment like titanium knees, wheelchairs, etc), the cap on premiums for the chronically sick (the group designation limits how many people the cost of care can be shifted to), and you have an increase in premiums to show that cost.
Illegals show up in the cost of care PAID for by the insurance companies. The uninsured also show up here and since the uninsured legal residents is the only varible that Congress thinks they can control, that is what they have done. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2013 : 07:49:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
I was wondering: if an illegal immigrant shows up at the ER, do they get treatment? |
Yes. See the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act of 1985.
| If so, who pays for that treatment? |
No one. The loss is passed on to the paying public through higher cost of ER visits.
| If they get healthcare benefit from the federal government in the future, how is this different? |
The hospitals providing this care would get money for the majority of ER visits (52% of all ER visits currently, the hospital doesn't see a dime.) and costs for this care would stop rising at the rate it has been.
Source: Weber, E., Showstack, A., Hunt, K., Colby, D., Grimes, B., Bacchetti, P., and Callaham, M. (April, 2008) Are the uninsured responsible for the increase in Emergency Department visits in the United States?. Annals of Emergency Medicine. 51(2). Pg 108-115
Do people who don't want illegal immigrants to get healthcare from the government want the ERs to turn them away after somehow verifying their status?
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They are forbidden from doing so by EMTALA. Moot question. Even if they are denied healthcare insurance, they still cannot be barred from getting care. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2013 : 08:13:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
First off there is a big difference between an ER visit and healthcare benefits. No one is saying that anybody should be denied if they show up at the ER in need of help. What I am saying is that I think it is wrong to give free health care benefits to those who are here illegally and many times are not even paying into the systems. This only raises the cost for those here legally and are paying into the system. What part of "illegal" do you not understand when referring to illegal immigrants?
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How are you unable to see that by providing health care to everyone, this will lower cost for everyone long term by providing preventative care, and reducing ER visits? By denying this, you are raising the costs for everyone.
"Illegal" does not matter to me - this is a question of human decency and morality. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2013 : 08:14:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
They are forbidden from doing so by EMTALA. Moot question. Even if they are denied healthcare insurance, they still cannot be barred from getting care.
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My last question was more rhetorical...I know that can't do that because of the law, but I wonder about the people who are against it - if they could, I think they would deny them ER services. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2013 : 08:18:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
What most conservatives are saying is that illegal immigrants should not be getting long term heath care benefits packages from the federal government. |
Do you have any evidence that even a single illegal immigrant is or will be "getting long term heath care benefits packages from the federal government"? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2013 : 08:35:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Bill scott
What most conservatives are saying is that illegal immigrants should not be getting long term heath care benefits packages from the federal government. |
Do you have any evidence that even a single illegal immigrant is or will be "getting long term heath care benefits packages from the federal government"?
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That is irrelevant to your unfounded and unwarranted claims that I am a racist bigot and your inability and refusal to apologize when faced with this fact. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2013 : 09:02:03 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by pleco |
| How are you unable to see that by providing health care to everyone, this will lower cost for everyone long term by providing preventative care, and reducing ER visits? By denying this, you are raising the costs for everyone. |
How are you unable to see that actually defending our boarders and curbing the flow of illegal immigration will lower costs? If we would have been doing this all along we would not even be in this mess.
| "Illegal" does not matter to me - |
But it does to me and many others.
| this is a question of human decency and morality. |
Not for the democrat party. To them this is an issue of potential voters and nothing more. Their disdain for voter ID law proves that point. The UN voting observers at the last presidential election came away stunned that most voters didn't even have to show an ID to vote. We can legally require ID's to buy cigs, porn, alcohol, lottery tickets, to cash a check etc... etc... etc... but as soon as you mention needing one to vote the progressives get their panties all twisted claiming that this is somehow racist?!?!?!?!? But requiring an ID for all these other transactions somehow is not?!?!?!?!? Down is up, left is right, right is wrong in the progressive's politically correct backwards bizaro world. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Obamacare is the worst thing since slavery!
