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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26025 Posts |
 Posted - 03/23/2005 : 18:41:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Timgraysr
Regarding Terri:
This is unbelievable. Surly the people of this forum are smarter than to take a single opinion on the Terri Schaivo matter. Only a fool considers a matter without learning all there is to learn about it. Much like that idiot judge in Florida. I hear the media calling her brain dead. Yet there are doctors and other professionals that have visited her and disagree. Today one of these Doctors was in Congress trying to tell people that she could be helped. Her father and mother say she is responsive. A former nurse that once treated her attests under sworn affidavit that she is responsive. So, who is right? Do not intelligent people know to error on the side of caution? Why do we purchase car insurance? I knew a man years ago who's wife had a similar stroke years before we met. She had just got to where she could roll her eyes and force a smile from one side of her mouth while tied in her chair. But smile she did when her husband would pet her head and read to her. She was starting to recover. Years earlier she was just like Terry. Be logical, be smart and be humane.
Repetition of a bad argument doesn't make it better in any way.quote:
If she isn't there, then it won't bother her to live.
Well, if you don't believe in any sort of "afterlife," you've got somewhat of a point, but it'll still bother the hell out of her husband.quote:
But, if she is there can the same be said to die?.
Okay, so what if she is there and in absolute agony every day?quote:
Further I have been listening to so-called professionals telling how great and peaceful it is to die from dehydration and starvation.
Like whom?quote:
Some say, even so “I wouldn't want to live like that”. I sure wouldn't either. But there are people of money in better health than I that would rather be dead than live as I do now. It is not for us to say. It is her life and I an sure that it is every bit as precious to her.
And she said, "I wouldn't want to live that way." Who the hell are you to decide that she should not get her wish?quote:
Now as far as the “parents” in the forum that insist “she died fifteen years ago”. The doctor that testified today contends that she was never treated for what her actual condition is. She has been miss-diagnosed for that long. But then I am sure you know better.
Funny how you ridicule "so-called professionals" who disagree with you, but on this single opinion, you hang your hat. What a massive hypocrite you are.quote:
Why is it every one just wants the problem to die and go away. Shame on you.
And up yours, too. As a |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2005 : 19:01:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
but everyone is dead when their Last Will and Testament comes before the Probate Court.
My point was, that you empower your lawyer to CHANGE your last will and testamant BEFORE you die, if anyone messes with the provisions of your living will.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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clmiller1979
New Member
2 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2005 : 20:23:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
Today at 5pm in Florida, Terry Shibo will be murdered. She is a woman who is severly brain damaged because of a car accident many years ago. She can breath on her own. She is responsive to her parents. At 5 o'clock her feeding tube will be removed and she will starve to death. She will die maybe the the slowest most painful death possible.
Who is making the decision to do this? Her husband. He left Terry many years ago. Helives with another woman, and has two children with this other woman. He never officially divorced her, so he is given the decision of whether to keep Terry alive, or to kill her. Terry's parents want to keep her alive, but this evil man is killing her anyway. Do you know why? Because he will recieve all of her assets. Her house, her car, her money. This man is disgusting.
What is this world coming to? The first people that the Nazi's killed were the mentally handicapped. Is that the direction we're going?
We already kill un-born babies on a regular basis. Now this. What next? When does this end?
This story has literally made me feel sick.
[Moved to the Social Issues folder - Dave W.]
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carebear |
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clmiller1979
New Member
2 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2005 : 20:35:40 [Permalink]
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| [purple]I just want to say that if Terry were really brain dead then why do they have to un hook her feeding tube? Why not just "pull the plug" if she has no brain activity then thats all they would need to do! I think that she is alive and does have brain activity!! |
carebear |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2005 : 20:45:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by clmiller1979
[purple]I just want to say that if Terry were really brain dead then why do they have to un hook her feeding tube? Why not just "pull the plug" if she has no brain activity then thats all they would need to do! I think that she is alive and does have brain activity!!
She does have brain activity, but only basic motor function. No one is claiming she is brain dead. Rather, it's called a "Persistent Vegetative State." Methinks you should read up more on this matter before forming any opinions.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 03/23/2005 20:49:26 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2005 : 00:09:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
just want to say that if Terry were really brain dead then why do they have to un hook her feeding tube? Why not just "pull the plug" if she has no brain activity then thats all they would need to do! I think that she is alive and does have brain activity!!
Go back to page 12 of this thread. Look for my posts there, specifically the one with links to CT images.
Ignorance is no substitute for knowledge. The claim has never been made that this woman was 100% brain dead. She is, however, braindead in every way that matters when it comes to cognitave function. Her brain functions are reduced primarily to autonomic control of breathing and heartbeat. She has been diagnosed, by many physicians (many of whom specialize with the brain and brain injury) as being in a PVS. Persistent vegitative state. In her case, it is a permanent condition.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2005 : 07:19:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Wendy
quote:
but everyone is dead when their Last Will and Testament comes before the Probate Court.
Originally posted by Dude
My point was, that you empower your lawyer to CHANGE your last will and testamant BEFORE you die, if anyone messes with the provisions of your living will.
In order to be valid, a Last Will and Testament must be signed by the Testator in the presence of witnesses. Since the Testator would be in a PVS, he/she would be incapable of executing the revised document.
[/hijack] |
Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2005 : 07:38:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by clmiller1979
[purple]I just want to say that if Terry were really brain dead then why do they have to un hook her feeding tube? Why not just "pull the plug" if she has no brain activity then thats all they would need to do! I think that she is alive and does have brain activity!!
Her entire cerebral cortex is dead. Her brain stem survives. Her personality, ability to cognitavely process pain, ability to respond to her environment is gone. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2005 : 08:04:13 [Permalink]
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Great links, Starman. Thank you.
This case has caused me to look over my own Living Will. It turns out I need to update it. At the time I executed mine Kentucky (my home state) would not allow nutrition or hydration to be withheld. The law has since changed, and my Living Will needs to be updated. Those of you who have Living Wills may want to take a moment to make sure they are up to date.
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2005 : 08:19:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
In order to be valid, a Last Will and Testament must be signed by the Testator in the presence of witnesses. Since the Testator would be in a PVS, he/she would be incapable of executing the revised document.
hrrmm... good point. I hadn't considered that.
I'm sure there is something about conditional inheritance though. Like people setting up trust funds and only letting somebody inherit once they meet certain conditions. i.e. Get married, finish college, get to a certain age...
Have to look into this one a little more I think, just out of sheer morbid curiosity.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2005 : 08:32:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Further I have been listening to so-called professionals telling how great and peaceful it is to die from dehydration and starvation.
Like whom?
While I haven't been able to check up on this, an interesting post about this was made by a dietitian in the thread on christianforums I linked to. Quoting from there:
quote:
originally by Alaurie from christianforums:
I've been a registered dietitian for 12 years and believed this before I studied clinical nutrition. Most non-medical people do. But if you'll do a google search of starvation, dehydration, and endorphins (a morphine like substance produced by the body), you'll find that hospice experts discourage artificial nutrition/hydration because it actually makes a dying patient more uncomfortable. Starvation and dehydration actually cause the body to produce endorphins. But since food and water have so much emotion attached, hospice physicians will sometimes order what is referred to as "hydration for the family" ...a drip so slow that it doesn't stop the endorphin release, but makes the family feel something is being done for the comfort of a dying loved one.
edited to change formatting |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
| Edited by - tomk80 on 03/24/2005 08:34:52 |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2005 : 08:35:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
I'm sure there is something about conditional inheritance though. Like people setting up trust funds and only letting somebody inherit once they meet certain conditions. i.e. Get married, finish college, get to a certain age...
Absolutely! If you want to put strings on your bequests, a Trust is usually the way to go. Most states allow you to create a Trust in your Last Will and Testament, if you want. My Will contains provisions for a Trust for my children, though they won't get much! 
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2005 : 09:03:40 [Permalink]
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This just in.
SCOTUS denies relief, cites Article II violation of law.
This story has probably run it's course. Jeb Bush was going to try to grab guardianship from Michael Shiavo but was stopped by the courts.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7283607/
“That is not an exercise of legislative power, but trial by legislature. ... Any law that suspends, nullifies, or reverses a final court judgment is an exercise of judicial, not legislative power,” -- excerpt from the ruling. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2005 : 11:18:00 [Permalink]
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If the state decides to take guardianship, then the SCOTUS should act.
If anything good has come out of this, it is that people are looking at end of life situations more carefully. It might be of some importance to get our legislators to establish a law regarding living wills. (It's probably on the books somewhere but who reads books these days) So this never happens again.
She technically is alive, heart beat and all. Whether the personhood Terry Schiavo is there is as debatable as how many angels can stand on the head of a pin. There is no definitive test as to cognition or self awareness. What is known is portions of her brain is shutting down or has atrophied. And there is no known technology to revive brain cells. Ease her passing.
What I find abhorrent, is the use of the Judiciary to determine which doctor's report is correct. politicizing medical science, a legislative branch who never before cared about Terry but now are grandstanding for votes, gov't intrusion into the bond between a husband and wife.
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