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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
 Posted - 02/11/2006 : 05:02:24
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I wouldn't normally start a new thread when we have one on the same topic but I felt this was really a different tack and wanted to go a little different direction.
http://www.democracynow.org/
Thursday, Feb 9th program transcripts:
Look at these three. If you have the time and are interested in an excellent analysis of the situation, one I haven't heard elsewhere, read them and if you have more time I think you can play them or there's a pod cast or something.
# Danish Newspaper At Heart of Controversy Rejected Drawings Lampooning Jesus Christ
# Editor of U.S. Daily Explains Why He Published Mohammed Cartoons
# As Muslim Outcry Grows, Questions of Rights vs. Responsibilities Come To the Fold
Amy G. did an incredible job with this story. I was so impressed. And it makes me even more disgusted we have such crappy news media right now.
Here's the rundown: The first interview was with a Danish news person. She described the government there as also being Christian, extreme and right wing. I didn't know any other country was dealing with what we are. That is frightening to think the Evangelicals are out to take over the world, (but I digress). Anyway, she said the cartoons were really quite racist and there is a lot of racial/religious tension in the county, and in Europe. In fact on NPR there was a story today about a pork soup kitchen somewhere in Europe, I didn't catch where, that was serving free soup to the homeless. And, yes, the pork was a political statement that they didn't like the Muslims.
The interview with the editor of the one paper in the USA that printed the cartoons was pretty revealing about the hypocrisy of free speech. He really meant to print them to discuss the issues, not to make a statement of support of free speech or against Muslims.
Then there were the extremely well informed and insightful quote:
* Rahul Mahajan, editor of the website EmpireNotes.org and author of the books "The New Crusade: America's War on Terrorism" and "Full Spectrum Dominance: U.S. Power in Iraq and Beyond."
* Behzad Yaghmaian, Iranian-born author living in the United States. He is the author of the book Embracing the Infidel: Stories of Muslim Migrants on the Journey West. It is based on two years of traveling in the Middle East and Europe following migrants from Muslim countries. He is also a professor at Ramapo College in New Jersey.
interviews.
Their discussion was the most logical and important information on this subject I have heard to date. There are extremists in both the Christian and Muslim camps who are very happy with this incident. The Muslim clerics can point to the cartoons and claim, "See what freedom gets you? Your profit is insulted." The Christian extremists can point to the rioters and say, "See, they are at war with us."
It sets the progress by moderate Muslims who hate these extremists as well back by years. It makes trying to modernize and grow with the rest of the world harder and harder. And the same is true for us. It makes those idiots who really do think the most incompetent President we've had in my lifetime is keeping us safe and the Democrats can't, keep voting for the horrible administration. The extremists' leaders want a clash of civilizations and the rest of them are too stupid to realize what they are really asking for.
I think the lies Bush is now getting caught for, one after the other, may just save us temporarily. But I shudder at the long term outcome if things keep going on this path.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2006 : 10:24:43 [Permalink]
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Very good points, B, and thanks for the link. It seems as always that the political extremists always benefit from open conflict, as it polarizes people. I recall a few years ago in Jerusalem, Likud's Netanyahu deliberately provoked a deadly years-long uprising by Palestinians by taking a jaunt with an armed escort on the Temple Mount, just to push over-sensitive Muslim buttons. In some places, provocation becomes an organized, traditional art, as with the Protestant marches in Ulster through Catholic neighborhoods.
The best we can do is work with moderates in all camps, and meanwhile get rid of fanatic, stupid, leaders like the Bush gang.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/11/2006 10:26:44 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2006 : 11:35:24 [Permalink]
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One thing my daughter mentioned last night seems a good insight on her part:
She told me she's thinking that the average Abdel on the street in Muslim countries has lived all his life in a land where all matters of press and education are decided by the regime in power. Abdel's default concept of a nation is his on. Therefore, Abdel simply assumes, with encouragement from the local mullahs and elites who know better, that when a Danish newspaper insults his Prophet, then it must be because the Danish government deliberately instructed the paper to do so. Abdel has no experience or concept of people expressing themselves just for the Hell of it, without their governments having anything to do with what the say.
I think my daughter is onto something. I hadn't thought of it from that perspective. That thought allows us to see many of those Abdels in the screaming mobs as the manipulated, provincial-minded, yet honestly ignorant people that many of them probably are.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2006 : 12:27:27 [Permalink]
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Now the Danish Foriegn Ministry is calling for all Danes to leave Indonesia, due to terrorist threats there.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2006 : 13:24:26 [Permalink]
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Halfmooner wrote: I think my daughter is onto something. I hadn't thought of it from that perspective. That thought allows us to see many of those Abdels in the screaming mobs as the manipulated, provincial-minded, yet honestly ignorant people that many of them probably are.
The problem is this: how do they have access to cartoons printed in a Danish newspaper in the first place. If they have access through the Internet, that means they also have access to other information about how the West if run very differently from Islamic countries, and they really don't have any excuse for ignorance. However, I think that is not the case with most of the protesters. I think most of the protesters are being manipulated by people who know better. The people who know better (people like Osama bin Laden - he is quite familiar with the West, but he's an extremist anyway) bring news of these cartoons to those who really are insulated and get them all riled up. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2006 : 18:31:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Here's the rundown: The first interview was with a Danish news person. She described the government there as also being Christian, extreme and right wing.
Though nationalists do sit in the parliament, my impression is that the situation is not as bad as to be described as "extreme" and "right wing". Definitly not as bad as the US. Sweden is more moderate and tolerant toward foreign cultures compared to the rest of the Scandinavian countries, but in a European, or global scale Scandinavia (even Denmark) is rather tolerant.
quote:
Anyway, she said the cartoons were really quite racist and there is a lot of racial/religious tension in the county, and in Europe.
Has she even seen the pictures? Or examined in what context the pictures were published?`
It all started with the author of a children's book about Islaam who couldn't get an artist to make illustrations for his book because they were all afraid of radical muslims attacking them (like the dutch film-maker Theo van Gogh that was brutally murdered because of his critical movie on certain Islamic traditions, but there are others who has recieved death-threats).
The cartoons on Muhammed was proposed to be a comment of the self-imposed cesor-ship, brought on by fear being attacked by radicals who won't accept freedom of speech, or don't understand the necessity of critical opinions in an open society.
That so many people are willing to take these pictures out of their context and use it for their own agenda only proves how right the original "instigator" was about this issue.
quote:
In fact on NPR there was a story today about a pork soup kitchen somewhere in Europe, I didn't catch where, that was serving free soup to the homeless. And, yes, the pork was a political statement that they didn't like the Muslims.
That on the other hand is inexcusable.
quote:
The interview with the editor of the one paper in the USA that printed the cartoons was pretty revealing about the hypocrisy of free speech. He really meant to print them to discuss the issues, not to make a statement of support of free speech or against Muslims.
Which is how it should be.
quote:
Their discussion was the most logical and important information on this subject I have heard to date. There are extremists in both the Christian and Muslim camps who are very happy with this incident.
There's even a third party: Swedish politicians that bend over (forward) in an effort to prostitute themselves and free speech to appease the religious. They even went as far as to pressure to a company to close down the web-server that had the pics published.
The web-pages belonged to "Sverigedemokraterna" (Swedish Democrats), a nationalist party. Now I hate everything those fucking pukes and miserable excuses for human trash racist pigs stands for, and normally I would have spit on them and their ilk. But this time the government went too far: Freedom of speech guarantee their right to publish whatever junk they like, apart from actually inciting people (racist attacks, and attacks on sexual preferences etc. are excluded from freedom of speech), but the pictures published was under the protection of free speech.
When SÄPO (Swedish security police) finally contacted the editor of the web pages and explained how the pictures whould threaten the security of citizens abroad, then the editor decided to remove the pics themselves.
quote:
The extremists' leaders want a clash of civilizations and the rest of them are too stupid to realize what they are really asking for.
I think the lies Bush is now getting caught for, one after the other, may just save us temporarily. But I shudder at the long term outcome if things keep going on this path.
I find it interesting that the leader of HAMAS has offered to mediate in this conflict. I cannot help but wonder what his motives are. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2006 : 18:41:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
The problem is this: how do they have access to cartoons printed in a Danish newspaper in the first place.
According to a Dane writing on the Skepticality Forum, Danish mullahs went on a rallying-tour to the middle-east to get some political leverage back home. Evidently this backfired.
This is second hand information though. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2006 : 21:28:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
The problem is this: how do they have access to cartoons printed in a Danish newspaper in the first place.
According to a Dane writing on the Skepticality Forum, Danish mullahs went on a rallying-tour to the middle-east to get some political leverage back home. Evidently this backfired.
This is second hand information though.
The New York post has an article that discusses this very issue "Rent-A-Riot ABCs". Their site requires registration.
quote:
In December, a group of Danish Muslim militants filled their suitcases with photocopies of the cartoons and embarked on a tour of Muslim capitals. ... The emissaries found a more sympathetic audience in Qatar ? where the satellite-TV channel Al Jazeera (owned by the emir) specializes in inciting Muslims against the West and democracy in general.
The same was read in an article on MSNBC.
quote:
Laban immediately called together 11 other Muslim leaders to plan a response. Eliciting no regrets from the newspaper or the Danish government, they sent envoys to the Middle East to seek support there.
Cartoon Furor Began Quietly
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Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2006 : 01:22:38 [Permalink]
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I am skeptical that AlJazeera specializes in inciting Muslims, Moakley. That is the Image Bush wants you to have. AlJazeera of course has all the unembedded journalists in Iraq and interferes with Bush trying to control the propaganda news. AlJazeera has been fought by more than one Arab regime as it broadcasts free speech against those dictators. My understanding is AlJazeera is getting the Swift Boat treatment here and we are seeing a very warped version of what that media is actually doing. When I get time I'll start a thread with a different version of what AlJazeera may really be doing.
Dr Mab, I'm wondering if you had the time to read the interview with Jytte Klausen, Associate Professor of Comparative Politics at Brandeis University. Her most recent book is "The Islamic Challenge: Politics and Religion in Western Europe." (Interview starts midpage.)
Here is the beginning of the interview:quote:
AMY GOODMAN: Just before the program we spoke to Jytte Klausen, an Associate Professor of Comparative Politics at Brandeis University. Her most recent book is "The Islamic Challenge: Politics and Religion in Western Europe." We reached her in Brussels and I asked her to talk about the Danish newspaper that published the cartoons.
JYTTE KLAUSEN: Yes, the paper is the country's largest newspaper which means it has a circulation of about 175,000 copies. It is a conservative paper. It has a long tradition for association with the party of Anders Fogh Rasmussen, the Prime Minister of Denmark today. It has always taken into consideration the religious sensitivities of its readers who are primarily provincial middle class and farmers.
AMY GOODMAN: And can you then talk about their decision to do this and what it meant in Denmark?
JYTTE KLAUSEN: Well, there are different stories. One story is, what they say, Flemming Rose, the editor of the paper who was responsible for the cartoons said that he was dissatisfied with the spreading of self censorship in Denmark on all matters related to Islam. And as examples he gave that there were two theatre performances which were critical and funny reviews, over the summertime that had stories about George Bush but none of them had any stories about Osama Bin Laden. You can ask how funny it is to make a story about Osama Bin Laden, but that was one of his examples of censorship.
Another was that a children's book author said that he couldn't find anybody to make illustrations for a book about the Prophet. However that book is now out and it does have an illustration of the Prophet on the front page of the Prophet sitting on a winged horse. The book is selling quite well and no Muslims have protested it because the drawing is quite mushy and nice. It is not a political caricature.
And this is how she described the government's involvement:quote:
JYTTE KLAUSEN: I think the best way of doing that is to describe what happened just a week before the cartoons were published. There was an annual meeting of one of the parties, it's a coalitional government, Denmark has many parties and no one party has enough votes to govern. So the government is a coalition of two parties, two right-wing parties, and they depend on the very xenophobic Danish People's Party for the majority.
At the annual meeting, one of the parties before the courtroom, Brian Mikkelsen said that in the past five years, he said, Denmark has been in a cultural war and the government has now won the first round and this is a time to start the second round to eliminate all signs of multiculturalist |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/12/2006 01:24:31 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2006 : 04:43:34 [Permalink]
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Here's a nasty, little bit on the topic: quote:
Saudi Arabia's top cleric called on the world's Muslims to reject apologies for the "slanderous" caricatures of Islam's Prophet Mohammed and demanded the authors and publishers of the cartoons be tried and punished, Saudi newspapers reported Saturday.
Thousands of Muslims, meanwhile, took to the streets in London and several other European cities to protest the drawings that were first published in a Danish newspaper in September and recently reprinted in other European publications. One depicted the prophet with a turban shaped like a bomb with a burning fuse.
Who the hell does this Saudi shithead think he is? The reencarnation of Muhammed hisowndamnbself, that he can dictate to other countries?
But, then again, he's not so much different from our home-grown, religious shitheads, is he? Pat 'Assasinate Everybody I Don't Like' Robertson comes to mind right away. Uncomfortable thought, that one is.
B'gal, the title of your thread just might be dead on the money.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2006 : 12:53:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
I've noticed the mainstream media has picked up the talk about Muslim extremists being incited by their leaders. Yet you hear very little if anything that the right can use the same events to claim we are under threat and need them to protect us.
There's no question about the fact that the political right, conservatives, and xenophobes are spinning the story, and use the Muhammed pics to further their own agenda.
I bet the Swedish Nationalist party published Muhammed pic at least partly in order to provoke. But they did take the pics down after Swedish Security Police asked them to.
Still, that does not give Islamic religious leaders the right to dictate policy of foreign nations. It is a provocation to attack another nation's laws as has been done, and the western nations are in no obligation to comply. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2006 : 14:32:07 [Permalink]
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I fluctuate between being disgusted with the screaming lunatics who love to shake their fists at TV cameras and reminding myself this is what the Evangelicals want me to think.
A person on shepchick with a Scandinavian name though the Denmark government wasn't quite as right wing as J Klausen's observation for what it's worth. But I still stand by Democracy Now's news coverage being better than the mainstream coverage by volumes. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2006 : 18:15:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
on NPR there was a story today about a pork soup kitchen somewhere in Europe, I didn't catch where, that was serving free soup to the homeless. And, yes, the pork was a political statement that they didn't like the Muslims.
How ignorant of them.
Are they trying to insult Jews, vegetarians, Buddhists and who knows how many others too? Not all Muslims are the same either. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2006 : 03:41:29 [Permalink]
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Now it's starting to get silly -- no suprise there. quote:
Iranians love Danish pastries, but now when they look for the flaky dessert at the bakery they have to ask for Roses of the Prophet Muhammad.
Bakeries across the capital Tehran on Thursday were covering up the name-plates for Danish pastries after the confectioners union ordered the name change in retaliation for cartoons of Islam's revered prophet first published in a Danish newspaper.
"Given the insults by Danish newspapers against the prophet, as of now the name of Danish pastries will give way to Rose of Mohammad pastries," the union said in its order.
I am reminded of when hating the French was all the vouge because they didn't want any part of the Iraq insanity. People were pouring French wine and all kinds of things into the sewers. Our suckup Congress got into the act, like the snivvelig toadies that they are, and renamed the fries served in the Congressional Squat & Gobble "Freedom Fries."
That name first saw the light at a place here in NC. I thought it was funny when some redneck grease pit did it, but it sorta got unfunny fast.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2006 : 06:51:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Here's a nasty, little bit on the topic: quote:
Saudi Arabia's top cleric called on the world's Muslims to reject apologies for the "slanderous" caricatures of Islam's Prophet Mohammed and demanded the authors and publishers of the cartoons be tried and punished, Saudi newspapers reported Saturday.
Thousands of Muslims, meanwhile, took to the streets in London and several other European cities to protest the drawings that were first published in a Danish newspaper in September and recently reprinted in other European publications. One depicted the prophet with a turban shaped like a bomb with a burning fuse.
Who the hell does this Saudi shithead think he is? The reencarnation of Muhammed hisowndamnbself, that he can dictate to other countries?
I dunno. Pat Robertson, The Pope, or George W. Bush? Lots of political pundits think they can dictate terms to sovreign nations. Some of them have militaries to back up their dictates.
quote:
But, then again, he's not so much different from our home-grown, religious shitheads, is he? Pat 'Assasinate Everybody I Don't Like' Robertson comes to mind right away. Uncomfortable thought, that one is.
B'gal, the title of your thread just might be dead on the money.
Feh, ya beat me to it. And I agree, B'gal's description of the problem is pretty accurate. This has been brewing for a while due to the rise of extremism in general. Somehow, I think if the economy was doing better worldwide, this would have the legs it does. It's hard to get content people riled up over insignificant matters like a difference of faith. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2006 : 11:23:29 [Permalink]
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And now there is a million dollar reward for killing the infidels responsible...! Thats almost Rushdee level hate and thats hard to do.
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"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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